What work the builder subbed out and to whom is irrelevant to you. Nor should he be even bringing them into the blame game. HE hired them not you. If he didn’t check their work then that’s his failing.
You hired him. He is solely responsible for the end product. That’s what he got paid for.

BS to be pointing fingers at others he had do work and deflecting his responsibility to the end product.

 

Sorry for all your problems Jeff.

Most of your problems are caused by lousy machine work, but the rest are caused by the engine "builder".
He is the one who is responsible for contracting out the machine work, specifying it, double-checking it, etc. A supervisor. He got burned too, by the machine shop.
But I agree it is ultimately his failure. And he is trying to refund some of the labor etc that he can. So kudos to him for that. The fact that the machine shop is now out of business is very telling. He may have been relying on the excellent expertise of that machine shop and not double-checking their work. And it bit him in the *** You too. Who knows?

There are many businesses that have had enormous labor problems during this extended pandemic, and perhaps you just ran into another one. They may have been a great shop at one time, but things change.

I watched, listened and sometimes even helped as my best friend and excellent engine builder discussed many engine builds over the years. He always did the parts selection, the machine work and the assembly himself. I learned that all three of those things are very closely inter-related, and the most minor change can have a domino like effect on the whole build.

With the passing of my best friend now, if I ever had to have another engine "built" I would want one that can do everything in-house, and has proven experience and a excellent track record.

That would be the advice I would leave for anyone reading thru all of your problems.

I believe you have chosen very wisely this time around, and are in excellent hands.

 

I will be posting better pictures of the cam and lifters and valves this weekend with my thoughts.

 

All ears..never met Mark but he is one of 2 people on this earth id trust blindly with a build. 'Passion youre gonna love whatever Mark does for you.
Didnt read the whole thread but wonder if you had a freeze plug in the rear of the engine seep some, said the bell was a mess inside? When you drain the oil youll know if you got water in it they separate. No coolant seeping out of the head deck in the rear anywhere? Maybe that banging is water boiling ?
Last machinist was insistent I ditch the Canton pan (408 Little M) and use a Milodon or Moroso
Dont let this sour you on the car, hobby etc. Weve all been there a time or 3.

 

Dont the Dart blocks have some different cooling system feature vs Gen 1s that can cause an issue if not addressed?
Recall reading about it but never bookmarked. Vortecpro would know

 

First, I can only speak for Dart SHP blocks.....not the same as their higher price blocks. Dart SHP blocks do NOT have the water bypass that GM blocks have under the right side of the water pump pad, that bypasses coolant on startup, when the thermostat is still full closed. Apparently Dart does not think it is required. In the absence of that hole, most people recommend drilling one or two 1/8 inch holes in the thermostat flange, which I did, so that some coolant can bypass and not stagnate the system during warmup.

My heater snapping / cracking / popping problem occurred ANY time the heater was selected on......so, didn't matter if it was on startup....or after 300 miles when temp was fully up to 180 degrees. This engine NEVER exceeded 180 degrees in the 8000 miles I drove it. SO......I don't believe this special feature / lack of coolant bypass, of the Dart SHP block had anything to do with the problem.

 

As stated in this thread, the engine oil leaks at the back of the engine was caused by the fact that the machine shop nor the engine builder tightened the three allen oil passage screws in the back of the block. They were installed....but I found them loose after pulling the motor out of the car.

There was NO water in the engine oil when I pulled the motor from the car. And I never saw or detected any coolant leak externally on the engine anywhere....including the rear head deck. I looked and checked multiple times over the course of the 8000 miles.....and it needed coolant several times over those 8000 miles. It would slowly drop in the reservoir until I had to add more.....and then again....and again.

As for the Canton pan.....I would toss it, but Mark Jones says it will be a good pan once he adds his modifications. I also want a factory dipstick that actually works instead of the POS Lokar dipstick the builder installed.

 

I received a response from Mike Jones, the cam designer and provider, on my problem.

http://Mike Jones <tech@jonescams.com> Tue, Jul 19, 1:51 PM (6 days ago) to me

Your engine builder is at fault if he's the one that chose the heads, springs and lifters. When we say your springs had too much pressure, we're saying they had too much pressure for those stock lifters. I have customers who use even more spring pressure then what you had, but they are running $900-$1,000 Johnson racing hydraulic roller lifters. Their racing lifters are designed to handle a lot more spring pressure. The cam I sold you requires a lot less spring pressure then what you were running. A good engine builder will choose the cam that is correct for the engine's performance requirements, then choose the springs that meet the pressure requirements of the cam, then choose the lifters that will handle those spring rates, and valve lift.

 

Well....while waiting, I have cleaned up the entire engine compartment....looks like new. Removed the vacuum headlight system completely and its all for sale on Forum classified. Removed the heater hoses and capped off the heater core. No vacuum will be tapped off my engine except for Wagner PCV and EVAP systems. AND, it made the engine compartment look neater and cleaner. Perfect.

That solves the pinging / snapping / cracking problem.

 

Heres some pictures of the cam, which look to me like contamination from metal in the oil? You can see the pitting in the last picture.

 

Block ready to be honed-

 

The valves show stem wear, along with lifter pump up, and geometry problems.

 

Lifters

 

Parts cleaned and ready for work.

 

Crankshaft as pulled from the engine.

 

As I wait for my engine, and review all that has been posted, one thought has come to my mind about building an engine. As we know with my situation, people can assemble parts. And they can work to move a car down the road. But really, the true test of a successful engine build is how it works over the long run. I put 8000 miles on this engine in one year. We now see the results of what is clearly a poorly built engine, from the machining to the assembly. But......what if I had only 1000 miles on this engine in a year. I could have driven this car 8 years at 1000 miles a year, and would be at this same point.

So....when people recommend an engine builder, they need to find out if the engines built have actually been tested over a period of time. 8000 miles is hardly alot of miles....most daily drivers do way more than this. Now we all know that many people who own Corvettes often spend more time looking at the car than they do driving it. Especially C1 - C3 generations are owned by people who drive very little, spending lots of "trips" from their garage to some local parking lot, where lawn chairs, picture books and stuffed animals are put out while old men sit around and brag about their cars. So......you put a poorly assembled engine in one of these cars.....you have a lifetime engine. Add that to thousands of "restorations" that get stalled, with engines on stands......for 20 plus years.....in a barn.

I think the quality of any engine builder is defined by how the engine holds over lots of miles......not how pretty it is, or how well it runs in the short run. My engine felt strong.....but it was noisy, and who knows what would have happened in the second 8000 miles, i.e. this summer. It did not lock up.....I removed a running engine from the car. It would have continued leaking oil, continued using coolant,.....and maybe continued to run for years???? Even at 8000 miles a year. And how many engines are in cars right now, that has the same wear and damage as mine, will continue to run 500-1000 miles a year in Corvettes? And they will be deemed a "good engine build" But they are not.

In the future.....when people talk about a "good" engine builder......I recommend finding out how much their engines have been driven. I bet engines built by my original "engine builder" have very few miles on them......I bet less than 8000 miles. In fact......with the little miles put on classic cars......compared to production / daily driver cars......I wonder if any engine rebuilds are truly tested. The original 350 that was in this car was running fine when I removed it at 63,000 miles. My $10,000 plus, expensive /fancy parts engine is at 8000 miles. Chevy did better.

One last interesting point......One of the forum members on this very thread is one of the members who recommended this guy who built my engine. I listened,....and paid a big price. If you know who you are......my experience should change your future recommendations. You....as I did, assumed.... We were wrong. And it cost me alot of money, and I lost my car for the entire year.

 

Empty and ready hole for VortecPro 408. Headlight vacuum system removed.....heater system bypassed. All cleaned up.

 

Wow. Looks great.
Following this thread closely.

 

I sent Vortecpro pictures of the Mike Jones cam to Mike Jones for his input.....read below his response to the damage on the cam, and why.

That's not tracking. That's from the lifter wheels skidding on the lobes. Look at the discoloration from the heat. If it was tracking from the cam being soft, there wouldn't be the discoloration, and the edges of the wheel would be digging groves into the sides of the lobe, where the acceleration is the highest. .When the lifters collapse, you effectively end up with lash(clearance between the roller and the base circle). The wheel is losing contact with the lobe, then when it comes back in contact with the lobe, the wheel can't accelerate quick enough to "keep up" with the lobe velocity, and it skids.

Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs - 7859 Commerce Dr. Denver, NC 28037 - (704)489-2449
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 10:08 AM Mike Jones <tech@jonescams.com>

 

your problems with this engine didn’t take 8000 miles to show up, right?

A poor build will generally have symptoms immediately. One just needs to be cognizant of them. Know what is right and when something is wrong.
I believe this was the case here. You knew right away something was up. It was however difficult to believe or accept since you had used a “trusted” builder and spent the money.
So trying to make it right was a reasonable response and worth the effort. Ultimately however it was beyond what could be “tuned” and had more critical and fatal issues than it should have.