Question about World Product Heads
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 13,082
Likes: 3,399
From: SW Florida.
exhausts seals or shot guides will not use oil. that is an intake issue. we agree sometimes. i feel exhausts should have no seals. the little oil that goes in the exhaust guides gets blown out by exhaust pressure. most boat and race guys do not even run exhaust seals. and then they only need to machine half of their guides for seals that clear the springs. and those stupid metal cups just ake the intake valve spring-retainer combo that much heavire.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
But for every exhaust stroke pushing air up & out the guide is an equal stroke coming soon causing somewhat of a vacuum on all guides.
Its called the Intake stroke of a four-cycle engine.
But yes, The Intake valve stems seals leak the most.
Its called the Intake stroke of a four-cycle engine.
But yes, The Intake valve stems seals leak the most.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
The factory O-ring seals work with factory style 2-groove valve stems so you need those to start. You also would need those HEAVY factory valve retainers and the factory metal umbrella shields. If don't have all 3 of those items, the original O-rings will not seal anything.
330545 L82 Head
WP Head Installed on Engine
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
A few statements I found in my travels on the NCRS Forum
1) No, you don't need the OE stem O-rings if you use another type of seal.
2) The stock-type seals will work well IF they are properly installed and with metal shields also installed. Of course, for these or any valve seal to work properly the valve guides and valve stems have to be within tolerance.
3) If you want to improve sealing, also install positive type valve seals on the INTAKE valves. Use GM #460483 or equivalent.
4) if you use a "umbrella" type seal the type that moves with the valve inside the spring do NOT use the "O" rings as this will cut down too much on the oil supply for valve stem lubrication.
5) The GM #460483 are the positive type seals which have spring rings around both the valve stem and valve guide boss. They are similar to "Perfect Circle" all Teflon seals except they are made of Viton and they do not require machining of the valve guide boss (i.e. they are designed to work with stock OD valve guide bosses). The strange thing is that GM used these seals in conjunction with both the oil shields and the "O-ring" seals. I think they will work quite well without them, though.
General consensus is use one or the other but not both.
1) No, you don't need the OE stem O-rings if you use another type of seal.
2) The stock-type seals will work well IF they are properly installed and with metal shields also installed. Of course, for these or any valve seal to work properly the valve guides and valve stems have to be within tolerance.
3) If you want to improve sealing, also install positive type valve seals on the INTAKE valves. Use GM #460483 or equivalent.
4) if you use a "umbrella" type seal the type that moves with the valve inside the spring do NOT use the "O" rings as this will cut down too much on the oil supply for valve stem lubrication.
5) The GM #460483 are the positive type seals which have spring rings around both the valve stem and valve guide boss. They are similar to "Perfect Circle" all Teflon seals except they are made of Viton and they do not require machining of the valve guide boss (i.e. they are designed to work with stock OD valve guide bosses). The strange thing is that GM used these seals in conjunction with both the oil shields and the "O-ring" seals. I think they will work quite well without them, though.
General consensus is use one or the other but not both.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,502
Likes: 1,510
From: Little Rock AR
What it boils down to is that you can run ALL the factory stuff OR go with the aftermarket setups. You seem to be leaning to reinstall the stock heads. The factory style O-rings, 2-groove valves, and steel umbrellas will get the job done for you.
That said, NOBODY does that anymore so you might get pushback from others. Most car guys are running positive style aftermarket seals and lightweight retainers without the metal umbrella shields. Your machinist might also try to steer you that way. It is perfectly fine to go either way. Both will get the job done and keep the hood closed.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
The factory retainers are long enough to reach the second groove on the valve stems where the O-ring rides. Aftermarket valves rarely have second groove to accept the O-ring and aftermarket retainers are too short to reach the O-rings if you did run a 2-groove valve.
What it boils down to is that you can run ALL the factory stuff OR go with the aftermarket setups. You seem to be leaning to reinstall the stock heads. The factory style O-rings, 2-groove valves, and steel umbrellas will get the job done for you.
That said, NOBODY does that anymore so you might get pushback from others. Most car guys are running positive style aftermarket seals and lightweight retainers without the metal umbrella shields. Your machinist might also try to steer you that way. It is perfectly fine to go either way. Both will get the job done and keep the hood closed.
What it boils down to is that you can run ALL the factory stuff OR go with the aftermarket setups. You seem to be leaning to reinstall the stock heads. The factory style O-rings, 2-groove valves, and steel umbrellas will get the job done for you.
That said, NOBODY does that anymore so you might get pushback from others. Most car guys are running positive style aftermarket seals and lightweight retainers without the metal umbrella shields. Your machinist might also try to steer you that way. It is perfectly fine to go either way. Both will get the job done and keep the hood closed.
My goal during this cam swap was to keep the WP heads on the car as there is nothing really wrong with them (I'm assuming). The engine smokes on startup and less after running for a few minutes but still some smoke out both sides. Compression and Leak down tests are good so I'm thinking a combination of valve seals and leaking intake gasket causing this.
I don't want this to turn into an engine pull unless it has to, if I go any deeper I might as well just pull the engine.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,502
Likes: 1,510
From: Little Rock AR
The valves in the WP heads have 2-grooves but I hadn't thought about the aftermarket retainers being too short to reach the o-ring, thanks for pointing that out.
My goal during this cam swap was to keep the WP heads on the car as there is nothing really wrong with them (I'm assuming). The engine smokes on startup and less after running for a few minutes but still some smoke out both sides. Compression and Leak down tests are good so I'm thinking a combination of valve seals and leaking intake gasket causing this.
I don't want this to turn into an engine pull unless it has to, if I go any deeper I might as well just pull the engine.
My goal during this cam swap was to keep the WP heads on the car as there is nothing really wrong with them (I'm assuming). The engine smokes on startup and less after running for a few minutes but still some smoke out both sides. Compression and Leak down tests are good so I'm thinking a combination of valve seals and leaking intake gasket causing this.
I don't want this to turn into an engine pull unless it has to, if I go any deeper I might as well just pull the engine.
Looking forward to seeing how it runs after you fix the issues. It's a well preserved example with just a few things to make it all right.
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Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
Well the radiator is out and what a complete PIA that was. It wasn't a pretty sight getting it out by myself but it did come out. I damaged the upper outlet (broken loose), managed to smash the fins on a small spot on the AC condenser, 90% of those I was able to restore with my radiator fin comb. No way it's going back in the way it came out fighting the fan shroud.
I need 22" to remove the cam and have 18" with the AC condenser so I need to dump the AC charge and pull that next.
The radiator will need a trip to the shop for repair and/or re-core as there is some corrosion working inside and outside. Not sure what this cost these days but if I'm hitting the $500-$600 mark I will just buy a new Dewitts (ouch).
I need 22" to remove the cam and have 18" with the AC condenser so I need to dump the AC charge and pull that next.
The radiator will need a trip to the shop for repair and/or re-core as there is some corrosion working inside and outside. Not sure what this cost these days but if I'm hitting the $500-$600 mark I will just buy a new Dewitts (ouch).
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,502
Likes: 1,510
From: Little Rock AR
D,
did you try removing the radiator support upper bolts and leaving the lowest 2 bolts loose? You can find the bolt heads inside the front fenders. You tip the whole shebang forward. Makes removal much easier.
did you try removing the radiator support upper bolts and leaving the lowest 2 bolts loose? You can find the bolt heads inside the front fenders. You tip the whole shebang forward. Makes removal much easier.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
Yep did all that, I think my biggest issue was doing this by myself and fighting with two hands when I needed four. Will get some help putting it back in.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 923
Likes: 155
From: North Port, FL
Ive used the WP replacement heads on a couple different builds for quite a while. For the price they are a pretty good deal. I think I've read somewere they are a iron version/copy of a Dart head. Had to do the seal replacement on them all. The guides and clearance was good, but on this last set I bought 10 years ago or so I broke 2 of the spring studs, so I just replaced all of them with ARP after the second one broke. I would spend the money on these before stockers.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,031
Likes: 1,121
From: North tonawanda NY
Well the radiator is out and what a complete PIA that was. It wasn't a pretty sight getting it out by myself but it did come out. I damaged the upper outlet (broken loose), managed to smash the fins on a small spot on the AC condenser, 90% of those I was able to restore with my radiator fin comb. No way it's going back in the way it came out fighting the fan shroud.
I need 22" to remove the cam and have 18" with the AC condenser so I need to dump the AC charge and pull that next.
The radiator will need a trip to the shop for repair and/or re-core as there is some corrosion working inside and outside. Not sure what this cost these days but if I'm hitting the $500-$600 mark I will just buy a new Dewitts (ouch).
I need 22" to remove the cam and have 18" with the AC condenser so I need to dump the AC charge and pull that next.
The radiator will need a trip to the shop for repair and/or re-core as there is some corrosion working inside and outside. Not sure what this cost these days but if I'm hitting the $500-$600 mark I will just buy a new Dewitts (ouch).
Last edited by augiedoggy; Jul 8, 2022 at 08:56 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,031
Likes: 1,121
From: North tonawanda NY
Ive used the WP replacement heads on a couple different builds for quite a while. For the price they are a pretty good deal. I think I've read somewere they are a iron version/copy of a Dart head. Had to do the seal replacement on them all. The guides and clearance was good, but on this last set I bought 10 years ago or so I broke 2 of the spring studs, so I just replaced all of them with ARP after the second one broke. I would spend the money on these before stockers.
Last edited by augiedoggy; Jul 8, 2022 at 09:06 AM.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,686
Likes: 1,833
From: Huntsville AL
Update
The replacement of the valve seals, CAM swap and break-in was a complete sucess. No more white smoke and engine runs smooth as it should and holds 180 deg temp on a 95 deg hot summer day.
Today was also officially my first day of retirement so I'm off to a good start.
The replacement of the valve seals, CAM swap and break-in was a complete sucess. No more white smoke and engine runs smooth as it should and holds 180 deg temp on a 95 deg hot summer day.
Today was also officially my first day of retirement so I'm off to a good start.
