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Testing Intake Gaskets for leaks

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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 07:49 AM
  #21  
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Not very common for the studs to enter the port, is my understanding.

It seems with the larger ports, such as above 200 CFMs heads, the port is hollowed out so much that the rocker stud threads can be seen.
And sometimes it's a backyard hot rodder hogging out a port with good intentions but poor decisions.

As Silver7T8 pointed out, supposedly when the threads are showing through, a gob of sealant will cure any potential leaks.
I don't know about you, but I prefer not to see, (in my opinion) poor craftsmanship in porting just to gain a few ponies.

Off hand I do not remember which heads had the ports over sized that much.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 08:32 AM
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Ill share my experience as maybe it will help in some way. im battling a blowby issue now as well... When I replaced my heads a couple months ago I thought it would be a great idea to drain the oil and clean my piston tops of any carbon with brake cleaner... well I should have lubricated the rings afterwards before running the engine. It completely slipped my mind.

Thats the only thing I can think of that could be causing this new issue. I now get intermittent blue smoking and oil consumption and the extreme pressure in my crankcase (which I already removed the intake and used permatex gasket sealer for intakes to reseal). The pressure is so bad that it blew the oil seal in my fuel pump and made an oily mess of my passenger frame/ A arm and sprayed oil all down the side of my car.

I have just installed a new larger pvc valve which I now tied directly into the manifold vacuum vs the air cleaner where it previously was and hope to replace the fuel pump tomorrow and see what happens. I do also have a breather on the other valve cover but the sponge inside was soaked with oil as well (ugh)

I also am seeing oil seepage from my distributor seal. I will be doing the compression and leak down test to see if the issue is related to all cylinders or just one. I did assembly the new heads and lapped and checked all the valves and such also used the blue silicone umbrella seals but I suppose there could be an issue with something there as well.. Personally, Im all ears for methods to possibly "reseat" the rings at this point without a teardown as the engine has less than 2000 miles and ran great since I built it without any oil consumption previously
I should add the smoking is very inconsistent which I find kind of odd .... looking at oil catch can setups as well.

Last edited by augiedoggy; Aug 3, 2022 at 08:52 AM.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 12:58 PM
  #23  
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I would suggest performing a Leak Down test on the engine to be sure the rings are actually leaking. The Leak Down would show you where the leak is better than any other test with the engine together and still in the car. We use them on aircraft Piston engines to follow wear and tear on the engine. If your piston rings are weak then you should get a result of air leaking out of the oil fill hole.

The Leak Down tool is not that expensive, then you need a good source of compressed Air to hold the 100psi inside the cylinder while measuring the air leaking. The cylinder being tested needs to be at TDC when both valves are closed in order to seal the cylinder more effectively. If your exhaust valve is not sealing well you will hear air leaking out of the exhaust, if you hear air coming out the carburetor it would indicate a Intake valve or valve guide leaking. If you see bubbles in the radiator overflow then you might have a blown head gasket for example. The first gauge on the leak down shows the pressure being introduced into the cylinder and the second shows how much air pressure is staying inside the cylinder. If you see a number like 100/85 that would indicate that you have a 15% leakage loss. In your case I would probably test all of the cylinders to be sure of what is happening in your engine.

It has been a few years since I last did one but there are plenty of videos on YouTube on Leak Down Testing. Just be aware that you need to use enough air on the first gauge, for some reason the guys on YouTube like using ~10psi where I was taught to use 100psi on my Cessna. The cylinder does have to be at TDC but on Corvettes that is fairly easy to check by removing the valve cover. A leak down tester is still my favorite choice of tools for diagnosing compression related issues.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 01:13 PM
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I thought I remember that if your leak down points to piston ring issue, you can put a few squirts of a heavy weight oil in the cylinder to see if you get a temporary reduction in leak loss to confirm rings as the culprit. Or is that a Bubba thing that doesn't really work?
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 01:14 PM
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Only thing that comes to mind for now is:
You used a 1 & 1/4" grommet in the valve cover to mount the PCV valve, correct?
Double check the grommet bottom to make sure it truly is open to vacuum.
I had a pack of two that the bottom slit was sealed. Nothing that a pair of snips couldn't fix, but the PVC was blocked mean time. Easy to overlook.

You certainly have a lot of crankcase pressure. But I doubt it's from your thorough cleaning. The cleanser you used is no harsher than some of chemicals people pour down the carb. And besides, the cylinder walls would have been oil lubed in the first few seconds of start-up.
Something else is going on here.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 05:58 PM
  #26  
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Go for the low hanging fruit, replace intake gaskets using Gasgacinch gasket sealer and replace the valve stem seals if that was not already done when you had the heads off.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 07:14 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by wwiiavfan
I thought I remember that if your leak down points to piston ring issue, you can put a few squirts of a heavy weight oil in the cylinder to see if you get a temporary reduction in leak loss to confirm rings as the culprit. Or is that a Bubba thing that doesn't really work?
. It only lasts a couple of seconds. So it’ll show you if it’s rings by squirting in the oil in for a compression test. But not for a leak down.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by augiedoggy
Ill share my experience as maybe it will help in some way. im battling a blowby issue now as well... When I replaced my heads a couple months ago I thought it would be a great idea to drain the oil and clean my piston tops of any carbon with brake cleaner... well I should have lubricated the rings afterwards before running the engine. It completely slipped my mind.

Thats the only thing I can think of that could be causing this new issue. I now get intermittent blue smoking and oil consumption and the extreme pressure in my crankcase (which I already removed the intake and used permatex gasket sealer for intakes to reseal). The pressure is so bad that it blew the oil seal in my fuel pump and made an oily mess of my passenger frame/ A arm and sprayed oil all down the side of my car.

I have just installed a new larger pvc valve which I now tied directly into the manifold vacuum vs the air cleaner where it previously was and hope to replace the fuel pump tomorrow and see what happens. I do also have a breather on the other valve cover but the sponge inside was soaked with oil as well (ugh)

I also am seeing oil seepage from my distributor seal. I will be doing the compression and leak down test to see if the issue is related to all cylinders or just one. I did assembly the new heads and lapped and checked all the valves and such also used the blue silicone umbrella seals but I suppose there could be an issue with something there as well.. Personally, Im all ears for methods to possibly "reseat" the rings at this point without a teardown as the engine has less than 2000 miles and ran great since I built it without any oil consumption previously
I should add the smoking is very inconsistent which I find kind of odd .... looking at oil catch can setups as well.
Block one Breather on one side and open up the other side. With the engine idling the blowby will be puffing out the Valve cover if its only one Cylinder and a steady series of pulses if its all or most of them.
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Old Aug 3, 2022 | 11:26 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by ctmccloskey
I would suggest performing a Leak Down test on the engine to be sure the rings are actually leaking. The Leak Down would show you where the leak is better than any other test with the engine together and still in the car. We use them on aircraft Piston engines to follow wear and tear on the engine. If your piston rings are weak then you should get a result of air leaking out of the oil fill hole.

The Leak Down tool is not that expensive, then you need a good source of compressed Air to hold the 100psi inside the cylinder while measuring the air leaking. The cylinder being tested needs to be at TDC when both valves are closed in order to seal the cylinder more effectively. If your exhaust valve is not sealing well you will hear air leaking out of the exhaust, if you hear air coming out the carburetor it would indicate a Intake valve or valve guide leaking. If you see bubbles in the radiator overflow then you might have a blown head gasket for example. The first gauge on the leak down shows the pressure being introduced into the cylinder and the second shows how much air pressure is staying inside the cylinder. If you see a number like 100/85 that would indicate that you have a 15% leakage loss. In your case I would probably test all of the cylinders to be sure of what is happening in your engine.

It has been a few years since I last did one but there are plenty of videos on YouTube on Leak Down Testing. Just be aware that you need to use enough air on the first gauge, for some reason the guys on YouTube like using ~10psi where I was taught to use 100psi on my Cessna. The cylinder does have to be at TDC but on Corvettes that is fairly easy to check by removing the valve cover. A leak down tester is still my favorite choice of tools for diagnosing compression related issues.
Engines that are burning lots of Oil have a tendency to pass leak down tests very well. It's not the Compression Rings that are the problem. It's the Oil Control Rings.
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Old Aug 4, 2022 | 10:41 AM
  #30  
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During build/rebuild, mistakes can and often do happen. Perhaps the second rings' tapers were inadvertently installed upside-down?
That'll cause 2nd rings to scrape oil upward rather than down and will compromise oil control.
And, a flopped 2nd ring condition will evade any leak-down test as well.
Perhaps 2nd rings were incorrectly marked (e.g. "dot" or "dimple") by manufacturer?
There may be another way to visualize taper itself, but I don't know how to verify this condition without pulling pistons.

*edit perhaps you set this one up with larger bearing clearances which required a Hi Volume pump?
If not, that HV pump probably ain't helping matters.

Last edited by pedantic; Aug 4, 2022 at 11:11 AM.
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Old Aug 4, 2022 | 11:40 AM
  #31  
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A follow-up on the “rocker-arm Stud thread seal” information referenced in post # 18.
AFR 195 Heads have rocker-studs that ARE threaded through and into the intake ports.
(See Red Arrow- Attached Photo).


Also See attached AFR 4-Page Install Instructions.
https://images.carid.com/afr/items/p...structions.pdf

Page-2 /First Paragraph: Explains stud sealing procedure & explains oil consumption if not done.

Next-
Run Your engine to full operational hot temperature. (Getting OIL Hot & Thin)
Let sit overnight, remove intake-manifold examine all 8-intake ports in the heads with a flashlight,
there will probably be “visible standing-oil” behind each intake valve that is in the “seated-closed position”.


(See Photo Example of oil puddled behind intake valve)

I will bet a Steak-&-Salmon Dinner (with a bottle of wine) this is Your oil problem. 😀
This assessment is based on the facts that Your new low mileage engine has new parts & good assembly.




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Old Aug 15, 2022 | 09:03 PM
  #32  
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Today I changed the Oil from the Joe Gibbs Break in Oil to Lucas Break in Oil. I also added a bottle of Rislone Ring Seal. I have no intentions of starting a my Oil is better than your Oil but I am at a point of throwing a Hail Mary so why not try something. Although I believe the Pan holds around 10 quarts I only added 7 just to make sure the Oil stays away from the Crank. It was a beuitiful day in the PNW and I drove the car to the Canadian Border and back around 250 miles. I resisted the urge to go into boost and kept it in vacuum around 15 inchs most of the way. I drained the Oil and it looks like it used 1 1/4 Quarts. Which is horrible .However, I do think that it might be using less Oil the Tails Pipes are not playing the Moody Blues as bad. The off idle stumble i( fouled plugs) s not as obvious. I will probably put 7 Quarts back in and check it again after the next drive. I'm going to Trailer the car to the PNW NCRS event in Redmond Oregon this weekend. The car probably won't get driven much but well see.
I'm pretty sure I can use my Borascope down threw the Throttle Body and get a look at the Tops of some of the Valves and the Rocker Studs. Its got a single plane Intake so the Ports are short and straight.
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Old Aug 15, 2022 | 09:49 PM
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A bit more encouraging news is that the aft 4 spark plugs the easy ones to get to are not total'y Oil fouled. With the car running in my shop I'm getting a blue haze forming but I can still see threw it.
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Old Aug 15, 2022 | 10:42 PM
  #34  
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Still doesn't sound "Good enough".
Me, I wouldn't be pouring more oil in it. I would be taking it back apart.
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Old Aug 16, 2022 | 10:32 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by augiedoggy
Ill share my experience as maybe it will help in some way. im battling a blowby issue now as well... When I replaced my heads a couple months ago I thought it would be a great idea to drain the oil and clean my piston tops of any carbon with brake cleaner... well I should have lubricated the rings afterwards before running the engine. It completely slipped my mind.

Thats the only thing I can think of that could be causing this new issue. I now get intermittent blue smoking and oil consumption and the extreme pressure in my crankcase (which I already removed the intake and used permatex gasket sealer for intakes to reseal). The pressure is so bad that it blew the oil seal in my fuel pump and made an oily mess of my passenger frame/ A arm and sprayed oil all down the side of my car.

I have just installed a new larger pvc valve which I now tied directly into the manifold vacuum vs the air cleaner where it previously was and hope to replace the fuel pump tomorrow and see what happens. I do also have a breather on the other valve cover but the sponge inside was soaked with oil as well (ugh)

I also am seeing oil seepage from my distributor seal. I will be doing the compression and leak down test to see if the issue is related to all cylinders or just one. I did assembly the new heads and lapped and checked all the valves and such also used the blue silicone umbrella seals but I suppose there could be an issue with something there as well.. Personally, Im all ears for methods to possibly "reseat" the rings at this point without a teardown as the engine has less than 2000 miles and ran great since I built it without any oil consumption previously
I should add the smoking is very inconsistent which I find kind of odd .... looking at oil catch can setups as well.
Sounds like maybe a compression ring broke or something equally significant? You didn’t significantly up the CR in this head and cam swap did you?
The leak down should tell you what’s up. At least what cylinder/s are involved.
That’s a lot of crank case pressure to push out the fuel pump mating surface and around the distributor. It should be pushing oil out everywhere if it’s doing that from crankcase pressure.
if you take off the oil cap while it’s idling is there significant blowby exiting that hole?
BTW on the leak down test don’t go through trouble of keeping the piston up in the stroke. As long as the valves are closed it will not significantly alter your results, particularly in this situation imo.

Last edited by REELAV8R; Aug 16, 2022 at 11:04 AM.
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