Here is a page from the Hot Rod magazine article mentioned earlier that I also have. This page shows the relative heights of each on a side by side basis. The Holley and the Dart manifolds have a 1" riser on them. the Wiend manifold should be very similar in height and shape to the L88 intake.

Chuck




[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 10:01 PM 11/16/2003]

 

And THIS is why I was reluctant to post the info on my motor. First off, if you guys want to sponsor me and each send me a few grand in cash, then I'll be happy to contact Warren Johnson and have him BUILD me a full blast competition motor using all the best goodies. In the meantime, my money tree has died for the winter, and since I am the one paying for the engine via my pension (that also provides me with food clothing and shelter), I will be the one to decide what is right for it. Okay? :)

I also do NOT play "follow the leader" with the installation of parts. Can Am cars made GOBS of power using a flat tappet cam back in the "good old days". I see no reason why that can't be achieved today. I WILL make the concession of stamped, roller-tipped rockers, but that's as far as I'm going. I mean I COULD install a full blast funny car engine in it IF I HAD THE CASH :D

Please make all donations in the form of money order, cashiers check, or bank check to Michael Bonomo. E-mail me for the address :lolg: :lolg:

Dep



[Modified by Dep, 7:19 AM 11/17/2003]

 

Chuck: Thanks a ton for sending me that article. It's one of the reasons I started this thread in the first place! :thumbs:
Where would the Brodix manifold fit into that comparison?

Dep :blueangel:


[Modified by Dep, 7:32 AM 11/17/2003]

 

High compression Can-am motors of the good ole days made approx 650 hp, my 454 makes that today on pump gas...with a roller cam.

I have no interest in sponcering your motor build. When you post a request for help it makes you look silly when you make rude comments towards those who take thier time to type a responce to your request.

Go ahead and leave 100+ hp on the table :rolleyes:

 

Not to split hairs, but I posted a request for MANIFOLD info based on personal experience. I KNEW that as soon as I posted what engine mods I was doing, there would be a whole slew of "Experts" trying like crazy to spend my money that I DON'T have. That's WHY I resisted posting the info in the first place. If you make a zillion horsepower with roller cams, I'm HAPPY for you! But THAT AIN'T ME!!! I don't have unlimited resources nor do I want to go that route. That's MY CHOICE. You don't like it...too bad. But please keep your hands OUT of my pockets. I'll spend my money and build my engine MY way...thank you very much.

Dep



[Modified by Dep, 9:40 AM 11/17/2003]

 

OK buddy..you're on your own!

If you are of the belief that you can pick engine parts and throw them together and they will work just fine..go ahead. No prob from the peanut gallery here.

But you asked for advice from folks who have used this stuff and have possibly have some real experience with it. We can and will give you the benefit of that experience for free. Some of us have spent lots of our $$ (and yes other folks' $$ too) to gain that knowledge. Dyno/track time ain't cheap! Notice I said Knowledge..NOT opinion. We have tried many different combinations, some work some don't. You never know until you try them. What you can get from this group is all that information. It could SAVE you lots of money and help you screw together a solid combination from the start. Obviously you're NOT an expert on it either..or you wouldn't be here asking for advice. I'm not one either..that's why you see me here. I learn something interesting everytime I'm on here. Not that always agree with it, but it often makes me re-think what I "thought" I knew!

So if you back up and look at what you've told us, you want to build a pretty expensive combination based on a Dart block. Didn't look too low-budget to me. In killer race trim it makes 820 hp or so. Your combo will be milder. That's fine, and it will run strong.

But there are glaring "abnormalities" in your combination that are outside the norm. That's fine, but don't scream at folks and catch an attitude for asking about it.

Someone building a "lo-budget" engine typically doesn't lay out lots of bucks for an aftermarket block. It's heavy and it's overkill. And folks building such an engine typically don't like buying $5 a gallon race gas. Someone building a "real" race engine will maximize compression since they are already buying expensive gas. They will also install a cam that can benefit from that extra compression. Your L-88 and ZL-1 and LS-7 cams will run pretty stout, They always did. They aren't bad cams. But even in the flat tappet world there are better. If you want to use a flat tappet, I'm all with you. Solid rollers are definitely not low maintenance. And yes you can use roller tip rockers, but hey GM just used long slots and they worked fine. Early Pro Stocks were running 9's with less than 500", solid flat tappets and long slot rockers. No reason you can't either. But there is a reason rollers were invented and why every race motor these days uses them. Even the factory uses them so reliability is not an issue.

But intake manifold choice is not a one shot deal. It is based a lot on the entire combination. When the Team G first hit the market it was what everyone wanted. We got one and ran literal back to back tests at the track against an old Edelbrock C-454 dual plane on a high 9 second Camaro. It made absolutely no difference on MPH or ET. Sure we could have maximized it with a different converter etc. But you see..detailed info from tests like that is what we can give you.....

Anyway, I think it was entirely rude for you to respond to folks the way you did. It takes time for them to give you honest responses and I would think you could appreciate that. Everyone has their own criteria..the more you let folks know what yours are. the better they can help you. John gave you an honest fact...he is making more HP than most race engines used to make using smaller heads and pump gas. Frankly an undercammed, high compression stroker motor won't make much more than he does. Just a mismatched combination. When you build a big motor, you have to realize that everything you assume about cam/intake /head selection was based on 427/454 sized motors. Normal stuff will starve it. A bunch of extra cubes completely changes the picture. Would you use a cam that works well in a 283 in a 400 and expect it to work? Same with intakes or anything else. If you choose to not build to that level, that's fine, but in a race motor, lifters and cams last forever.


JIM

 

:lurk:

 

The valvetrain/cam parts I will be using already HAVE a good track record. A PROVEN track record. That's ONE of the reasons I am picking them. The engine I am assemblying is NOT an "unlimited funds" motor, simply because I don't HAVE unlimited funds. I specifically DIDN'T want to post the info on the engine parts because I KNEW that some folks on here are like that Ford motto ("Ford has a BETTER idea"). And naturally, when I DID post the info people didn't hesitate to provide their "better ideas", input I DON'T need. I was asking a VERY SPECIFIC question ONLY about manifolds. I listed the ones I wanted info on and that's ALL I wanted. I didn't ask for, nor do I NEED, advice on internal parts or any other opinions. My mistake was listing what I planned in the first place. I have discovered that many guys in here believe THEIR way is the ONLY way and NOBODY is allowed to think differently. I have a few choice words for those that think that way, but I can't say them because I agreed not to to the mods. So PLEASE FORGIVE ME for not going along with what is "ACCPETED METHODOLOGY", but I'm the one spending the money and I'm the one who will be paying the VISA bills.

BTW...for those who think roller cams are so spectacular, I suggest you visit Chuck Harmon's website and see what can be done with a flat tappet STOCK L88 cam. Chuck also posted an opinion that I firlmy agree with in the thread "disappointment at the dyno"...

"Don't let low "real" numbers dampen your enthusiasm for a great engine. The from-the-hip- quotes most guys give are fish stories. Cut their numbers in two and you will be much closer to the truth."

483 RWHP at @5856 RPM
7/16" push rods
.540/.560" lift factory cam
Tripple Vanadium valve springs
Factory L88 highrise (#'s correct)
------------------------------------------
Also, the combination I am building is NOT all that expensive. It is actually quite resonable given the parts I am using and what I plan on doing with it.

To Chuck...thanks again for that Dart info!!!
Dep
P.S. Glen: share that freakin' popcorn!!! :D


[Modified by Dep, 7:46 PM 11/17/2003]

 

Just trying to learn myself something.......
:rolleyes:

 

No sweat...didn't want you to think we were ignorin' you ;)

Dep

 

Dep,

You will surely be PO'd when you learn that I have just installed a solid roller in my otherwise factory spec L88. But I only did it for the gas mileage. I almost forgot, I'm running full roller rockers too for the same reason.

Please, no hard feelings. And pass the popcorn, will ya?

Chuck

P.S. I think we can all agree that there are few guys as fun to throw Darts at as Dep. i.e. Dart heads, Dart intakes, etc. (man, that would hurt!)


:cheers:



[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 10:41 PM 11/17/2003]

 

Okey Dokey Depster....

I guess I just never noticed you too high on the 'ole radar screen before. I got a few E-mails warning me "Not to feed the Dep". Great rep you have around here!

If you noticed even when I was complaining about you I was STILL trying to help.

And I wasn't going to burst your bubble about Chuck installing a roller cam in his high compression engine. I'm glad he told you.

So anyway, I now know to just leave these topics in :troll mode!

No thanks......I won't be needing any popcorn....I'm leaving. Not worth the effort.

JIM

 

Chuck: I'd seen you post about the change to roller cam previously. Hope you leave up that dyno test with the L-88 cam though. Seeing it always brings a big smile to my face :D

I certainly got no criticism of the change to roller cam! YOU know best what type of driving you do and what will suit your needs better than anyone. What right would I have to criticize or be POed??? The answer is NONE :)

Keep an eye on the roller rockers though. They don't have a real long life expectancy. Wouldn't be too cool to have little chunks of metal circulating through the engine. Okay...time to needle you a LITTLE bit...did you get the pretty GOLD ones that look so nice in the Summit and Jegs ads? WIll you be installing little clear windows on the valve covers so people can SEE them? Or do you have quick release bolts on the valve covers so that when you pop the hood at Mac's you can put them on full display? :lolg: :lolg:

427Hotrod/JIM: Sorry if folks warned you I am a ticking time bomb :)
I made quite a few friends as well as probably peed off quite a few on the forum. Oh well...I can't and WON'T try and please everyone. Just not worth the effort.

The time bomb thing is probably a bit of an overstatement, though. I am definitely NOT like the rest of the guys on here who gobble up all the advice they get like a sponge, no matter how far off topic it is. I am also NOT a newbie to hot rodding, although, unlike some folks on the forum (ahem...names withheld because I am currently on thin ice), I don't list chapter and verse of my "qualifications".
I appreciate as much INPUT as I can get on the information I need. And I will thank ANYONE graciously for giving that input. I am NOT a "know-it-all" by any means. However, specific questions deserve specific answers and "General Advice" is best left in the barracks unless he is called to duty :)

BTW...this was NOT anywhere near a :troll thread by me. If you want to see what they look like dig back in the archives for my posts about the Z-28 302 motor and it's superiority over stroked crate motors. THAT was some magnificent trolling as well as some dang stimulating discussions! :D
No hard feelings JIM.

Go ahead....take some of Glen's :lurk: :D :D :D

Dep

 

I ran the Dart intake on both of my race engines and had good luck with them. I have a 4510 flange square port short deck intake off my spare engine that I am going to sell, It is in very good shape. I am detuning this engine back to stock ls-6 specks and putting it back in my chevelle for show and have all the orig. intake and head combo for it. I would like to get 200 for the intake.

 

Skid: That's a dang good price and I'm sorely tempted to take you up on it. But the head packages I am looking at include manifolds with them. I suspect that mani will sell FAST on E-Bay though!!! Probably for a lot more $$$.
:thumbs:

Dep

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......some spirited discussion going on.....I hope you guys don't have thin skins and take the comments personally. I can relate to both points of views...Dep's, Hotrods and NOX's.

Sometimes too much information is not a good thing, sometimes we volunteer more in response than is asked......sometimes when said information is given, maybe it's best to file what is relevant, and disregard the rest, and say thanks. Everyone needs to step back and take a breath, and not get offended by what the other is posting.

Now, please pass the :lurk: I'm hungry :D

 

Well said George and I apologize if I stepped on any toes. I got big feet and I always seem to have them either in my mouth or on top of someone else's.
:cheers: :cheers:

Dep