Underbody Aerodynamics...
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
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From: NC,USA
Underbody Aerodynamics...
Hey guys...
The post talking about the removal of the spare tire carrier sparked an idea for me... What would it take to build an underbody pan to smooth out some of the air going under the car? I was thinking if you are running sidepipes you remove the major heat source for the back of the car... So you could run fiberglass panels instead of aluminum...
I was trying to figure out how you could best mount a lightweight, panel that is form fit to the rear bumper, that follows the body lines down to the tips of the rear wheel well... and has a front panel that is form fit to the wheel wells, with clearance for the suspension... so the air has to move either out of the wheel wells or lift the car off the ground.
Then I started pondering our cooling system up front and how it needs a channel of air thats nearly perfectly sealed on the intake side just to cool the engine... and if you could build an aluminum pan that bolts up to the underside of the car behind the bumper to the base of the radiator, maybe farther back then that... The problem I see with connecting it to the front of the frame is that you would have to slope the pan downward to acomplish that... or run a spoiler up front and attacht he body pan to the spoiler. I dont quite see that as an option because of the body lines and the clash that would occur.
Then for the underside of the floor boards a Pan that replaces the rock deflectors (on the front of the floorboards) and seals against the firewall... down then is attached to the frame rails (flat medium...) to the front of the rear suspension.
The one thing that has been bugging me through the thought process has been the cooling of the differential, as far as I know it is air cooled and only air cooled... so removing the air going to it might be a bad thing. The transmission on a manual car also is bugging me slightly, because it is also air cooled... So do you funnel air in using brake ducting from the scoops on the sides of the car back to the trans?
Actual brake cooling has also been another pondering topic during the start of this "project." Mainly because of questions on weither or not ducting air to them is a wise choice... the old racecars used to use a wheel cover that was far enough out of the fenderwell to funnel air over the brakes, but ducting would for sure look the best...
For me, the goal is to have a machine that no longer picks up at 80-90 without the use of spoilers while maintaining a pretty well stock exteriour of the car. Then the added benifit of less drag = less horsepower needed to push the car to a given speed!
From what I can tell the general idea of the body pan is to allow you to have a not so aerodynamic underside be covered up with an easy to remove panel... and the panel slopes up away from the front bumper to the rear bumper creating a little bit of a vacuum as speed increases. Especially when assisted by a sheetmetal spoiler like on the L88 racers and transam class cars :cheers:
:cheers:
The post talking about the removal of the spare tire carrier sparked an idea for me... What would it take to build an underbody pan to smooth out some of the air going under the car? I was thinking if you are running sidepipes you remove the major heat source for the back of the car... So you could run fiberglass panels instead of aluminum...
I was trying to figure out how you could best mount a lightweight, panel that is form fit to the rear bumper, that follows the body lines down to the tips of the rear wheel well... and has a front panel that is form fit to the wheel wells, with clearance for the suspension... so the air has to move either out of the wheel wells or lift the car off the ground.
Then I started pondering our cooling system up front and how it needs a channel of air thats nearly perfectly sealed on the intake side just to cool the engine... and if you could build an aluminum pan that bolts up to the underside of the car behind the bumper to the base of the radiator, maybe farther back then that... The problem I see with connecting it to the front of the frame is that you would have to slope the pan downward to acomplish that... or run a spoiler up front and attacht he body pan to the spoiler. I dont quite see that as an option because of the body lines and the clash that would occur.
Then for the underside of the floor boards a Pan that replaces the rock deflectors (on the front of the floorboards) and seals against the firewall... down then is attached to the frame rails (flat medium...) to the front of the rear suspension.
The one thing that has been bugging me through the thought process has been the cooling of the differential, as far as I know it is air cooled and only air cooled... so removing the air going to it might be a bad thing. The transmission on a manual car also is bugging me slightly, because it is also air cooled... So do you funnel air in using brake ducting from the scoops on the sides of the car back to the trans?
Actual brake cooling has also been another pondering topic during the start of this "project." Mainly because of questions on weither or not ducting air to them is a wise choice... the old racecars used to use a wheel cover that was far enough out of the fenderwell to funnel air over the brakes, but ducting would for sure look the best...
For me, the goal is to have a machine that no longer picks up at 80-90 without the use of spoilers while maintaining a pretty well stock exteriour of the car. Then the added benifit of less drag = less horsepower needed to push the car to a given speed!
From what I can tell the general idea of the body pan is to allow you to have a not so aerodynamic underside be covered up with an easy to remove panel... and the panel slopes up away from the front bumper to the rear bumper creating a little bit of a vacuum as speed increases. Especially when assisted by a sheetmetal spoiler like on the L88 racers and transam class cars :cheers:
:cheers:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (ZD75blue)
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_bottoms/
----
“You revisit each case,” he says. “Some vehicles, like a luxury vehicle, you may choose to go that route. … Where there's absolutely no attention paid to that in the underbody area, you can get about 5% to 6% improvement in drag by treating the underbody.”
---
Bottoms up!
ERIC MAYNE
Ward's Auto World, Sep 1, 2001 Brought to you by:
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Decades after their European competitors turned aerodynamics upside-down by employing “belly pans,” Big Three automakers admit they may have underestimated underbodies.
“If you look at their designs, if you look at the actions they have in place underneath the car, the management of airflow, it's obvious that, in the early phases of the program, it was an important design criteria,” says an engineer with one of the U.S. Big Three automakers.
So accustomed to being on top of the industry, Detroit apparently never looked down, concentrating on shapes that channeled airflow over the bodywork, instead of what lies beneath — a subject being pondered now as the specter of tighter fuel economy standards looms over Washington.
Meanwhile, automakers such as BMW AG were redefining airflow from the ground up. Underbodies have been a priority with the Munich-based automaker since 1980. That's when BMW acquired its first wind tunnel and began development of the 1986 7-Series — code-named E32.
Today, underbodies rank second — behind rear ends — on BMW's aerodynamics checklist, says company spokesman Wieland Bruch. Wheel housings and cooling airflow are third and fourth, respectively.
Such structured protocol helps explain why BMW's X5 sport/utility vehicle boasts a segment-leading drag coefficient of 0.35 — just 0.03 more blunt than the lower, sleeker Lincoln LS.
And, Mr. Bruch warns, expect an ill wind to blow on BMW's competition this month in Frankfurt. The automaker is unveiling “a huge step forward” in underbody technology with the debut of its new 7-Series.
“It's an orchestrated/comprehensive approach to optimize underbody airflow, wheel housing resistance, downforce on front and rear,” Mr. Bruch claims, withholding all details except the new 7's 0.29 drag coefficient.
With a nod to BMW, many other automakers clearly understand the importance of underbody design. For Lexus, it seems to be a breeze because the drag coefficients of its vehicles rank at or near the top of every segment in which it competes.
(However, success may have gone to the heads of its marketing department. A source tells WAW there were plans to claim the new LS 430 bests all production passenger cars with its 0.26 drag coefficient. Lexus lawyers correctly advised restraint — GM's EV1 boasts a 0.20.)
So why does Detroit seem to spit into the wind when it comes to underbody treatments as seemingly simple as belly pans? It all comes down to economics, says Roger Schulze, leader of DaimlerChrysler's newly christened aerothermal center of competence:
“This technique has been known in the industry at least 20 years,” he says. “But we've not been able to make a business case for the cost and weight.”
Don't rule out seeing belly pans on a General Motors product, says Max Schenkel, the No. 1 automaker's technology integration engineer. But don't hold your breath, either.
“You revisit each case,” he says. “Some vehicles, like a luxury vehicle, you may choose to go that route. … Where there's absolutely no attention paid to that in the underbody area, you can get about 5% to 6% improvement in drag by treating the underbody.”
According to the industry's rough measure, that's a performance increase of 2 mpg. But belly pans are not a panacea, he warns, because underbody component alignment must happen first.
“You also want to get the airflow to meet up with the airflow that's coming over the top of the vehicle,” he says.
The bottom line: “If you go the full belly pan treatment, you really must do the entire platform first.”
A quicker fix is a front air dam, which shields many of the underbody's uneven surfaces, Mr. Schenkel says.
DaimlerChrysler is trying hard not to underwhelm with its underbodies.
“What we're doing now is we're using some computer modeling to look at what we can do,” says Mr. Schulze. “With some ingenuity we might be able to do some things for free. If we make a fuel tank more aerodynamic, maybe that's a free improvement.”
Meanwhile, Ford is striving for process improvement. One goal is to formalize the sometimes tense relationship between engineers and designers, says Hau Thai-Tang, the No. 2 automaker's chief engineer of North America Car.
But it seems the winds of change are blowing particularly strong in another area. “We also look at clever things like A-pillar treatment … and how we manage airflow underneath the car,” he says.
---
:cheers:
----
“You revisit each case,” he says. “Some vehicles, like a luxury vehicle, you may choose to go that route. … Where there's absolutely no attention paid to that in the underbody area, you can get about 5% to 6% improvement in drag by treating the underbody.”
---
Bottoms up!
ERIC MAYNE
Ward's Auto World, Sep 1, 2001 Brought to you by:
Print-friendly format
E-mail this information
Decades after their European competitors turned aerodynamics upside-down by employing “belly pans,” Big Three automakers admit they may have underestimated underbodies.
“If you look at their designs, if you look at the actions they have in place underneath the car, the management of airflow, it's obvious that, in the early phases of the program, it was an important design criteria,” says an engineer with one of the U.S. Big Three automakers.
So accustomed to being on top of the industry, Detroit apparently never looked down, concentrating on shapes that channeled airflow over the bodywork, instead of what lies beneath — a subject being pondered now as the specter of tighter fuel economy standards looms over Washington.
Meanwhile, automakers such as BMW AG were redefining airflow from the ground up. Underbodies have been a priority with the Munich-based automaker since 1980. That's when BMW acquired its first wind tunnel and began development of the 1986 7-Series — code-named E32.
Today, underbodies rank second — behind rear ends — on BMW's aerodynamics checklist, says company spokesman Wieland Bruch. Wheel housings and cooling airflow are third and fourth, respectively.
Such structured protocol helps explain why BMW's X5 sport/utility vehicle boasts a segment-leading drag coefficient of 0.35 — just 0.03 more blunt than the lower, sleeker Lincoln LS.
And, Mr. Bruch warns, expect an ill wind to blow on BMW's competition this month in Frankfurt. The automaker is unveiling “a huge step forward” in underbody technology with the debut of its new 7-Series.
“It's an orchestrated/comprehensive approach to optimize underbody airflow, wheel housing resistance, downforce on front and rear,” Mr. Bruch claims, withholding all details except the new 7's 0.29 drag coefficient.
With a nod to BMW, many other automakers clearly understand the importance of underbody design. For Lexus, it seems to be a breeze because the drag coefficients of its vehicles rank at or near the top of every segment in which it competes.
(However, success may have gone to the heads of its marketing department. A source tells WAW there were plans to claim the new LS 430 bests all production passenger cars with its 0.26 drag coefficient. Lexus lawyers correctly advised restraint — GM's EV1 boasts a 0.20.)
So why does Detroit seem to spit into the wind when it comes to underbody treatments as seemingly simple as belly pans? It all comes down to economics, says Roger Schulze, leader of DaimlerChrysler's newly christened aerothermal center of competence:
“This technique has been known in the industry at least 20 years,” he says. “But we've not been able to make a business case for the cost and weight.”
Don't rule out seeing belly pans on a General Motors product, says Max Schenkel, the No. 1 automaker's technology integration engineer. But don't hold your breath, either.
“You revisit each case,” he says. “Some vehicles, like a luxury vehicle, you may choose to go that route. … Where there's absolutely no attention paid to that in the underbody area, you can get about 5% to 6% improvement in drag by treating the underbody.”
According to the industry's rough measure, that's a performance increase of 2 mpg. But belly pans are not a panacea, he warns, because underbody component alignment must happen first.
“You also want to get the airflow to meet up with the airflow that's coming over the top of the vehicle,” he says.
The bottom line: “If you go the full belly pan treatment, you really must do the entire platform first.”
A quicker fix is a front air dam, which shields many of the underbody's uneven surfaces, Mr. Schenkel says.
DaimlerChrysler is trying hard not to underwhelm with its underbodies.
“What we're doing now is we're using some computer modeling to look at what we can do,” says Mr. Schulze. “With some ingenuity we might be able to do some things for free. If we make a fuel tank more aerodynamic, maybe that's a free improvement.”
Meanwhile, Ford is striving for process improvement. One goal is to formalize the sometimes tense relationship between engineers and designers, says Hau Thai-Tang, the No. 2 automaker's chief engineer of North America Car.
But it seems the winds of change are blowing particularly strong in another area. “We also look at clever things like A-pillar treatment … and how we manage airflow underneath the car,” he says.
---
:cheers:
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 1
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (ZD75blue)
My 993 has a smooth underside. Funny thing is that many recommend removing the underbody panel under the engine for heat dissipation/engine longevity. Also makes the engine sound louder. :)
-terry
-terry
Safety Car
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,758
Likes: 3
From: Surrey
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (ZD75blue)
ZD,
While I was spending hours lying under my Vette last winter I was looking at the aerodynamics of it. My conclusion was that they are dreadful! The regular posts on removal of the spare tire & tub remind me of how mine looked when the tub was out for painting. On the 80-82 model (never looked closely at the underside of earlier ones) the rear bumper cover looks like a large parachute which will cause massive amounts of drag at speed. I think the tub will help prevent this when fitted & removal of it to save (not a lot of) weight could be a retrograde step due to the extra drag. I'm not an aerodynamics engineer, so this could be complete :bs
I reckon at the rear end a solution could be quite simple & easy to do. Instead of using metal, a sheet of ABS could be fitted underneath. On the 80 - 82 models this could be cut to shape and fixed to the inside of the lower lip of the bumper cover, using the existing fasteners. Forming ABS to bend it around things, etc is easy - just heat it up with a hot air gun & bend it (as I remember from my college days). Cutting & joining it (in case you cut off too much!) is far easier than with metal & a tidy job could probably be done with care & some patience. Once that's done you'll end up with a rear floorpan that slopes up as it goes back (rather like the shape of the new Jags) creating a bit of downforce. Then... you could make up a pair of fins & securely fix them underneath at each side to give directional stability. There's a Skyline GTR outside my window with those fins & the owner says that they give it very good directional stability at excessively high speeds. I was thinking about fitting an ABS pan under mine, but then discovered how much a sheet of ABS of that size would cost me :( If somebody is serious about reducing drag, etc then it's not an excessively high price to pay, but for the use I put my Vette to it would be a time consuming & expensive triumph of overkill.
Improving the aerodynamics of the rest of the underside looks like hard work & will cause some real problems in maintaining good airflow where it's needed. It might be a lot easier to take a car with a better shaped underside & to graft a C3 body to it. Anybody ever bolted a C3 body to a C5? Now that would be :cool:
:cheers:
While I was spending hours lying under my Vette last winter I was looking at the aerodynamics of it. My conclusion was that they are dreadful! The regular posts on removal of the spare tire & tub remind me of how mine looked when the tub was out for painting. On the 80-82 model (never looked closely at the underside of earlier ones) the rear bumper cover looks like a large parachute which will cause massive amounts of drag at speed. I think the tub will help prevent this when fitted & removal of it to save (not a lot of) weight could be a retrograde step due to the extra drag. I'm not an aerodynamics engineer, so this could be complete :bs
I reckon at the rear end a solution could be quite simple & easy to do. Instead of using metal, a sheet of ABS could be fitted underneath. On the 80 - 82 models this could be cut to shape and fixed to the inside of the lower lip of the bumper cover, using the existing fasteners. Forming ABS to bend it around things, etc is easy - just heat it up with a hot air gun & bend it (as I remember from my college days). Cutting & joining it (in case you cut off too much!) is far easier than with metal & a tidy job could probably be done with care & some patience. Once that's done you'll end up with a rear floorpan that slopes up as it goes back (rather like the shape of the new Jags) creating a bit of downforce. Then... you could make up a pair of fins & securely fix them underneath at each side to give directional stability. There's a Skyline GTR outside my window with those fins & the owner says that they give it very good directional stability at excessively high speeds. I was thinking about fitting an ABS pan under mine, but then discovered how much a sheet of ABS of that size would cost me :( If somebody is serious about reducing drag, etc then it's not an excessively high price to pay, but for the use I put my Vette to it would be a time consuming & expensive triumph of overkill.
Improving the aerodynamics of the rest of the underside looks like hard work & will cause some real problems in maintaining good airflow where it's needed. It might be a lot easier to take a car with a better shaped underside & to graft a C3 body to it. Anybody ever bolted a C3 body to a C5? Now that would be :cool:
:cheers:
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 88,393
Likes: 2
From: eville in
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (UKPaul)
don't forget , the first thing is to stop air from getting in at the front, 2nd if
your pan does work there will be a low pressure there so it will suck/pull
down add vertical ribs to strengthen and guide the air flow out :thumbs:
your pan does work there will be a low pressure there so it will suck/pull
down add vertical ribs to strengthen and guide the air flow out :thumbs:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (comp)
I hear ya on the ABS sheets... I was thinking aluminum sheetmetal with some a bead rolled in around the edges and some ribs down the center (not quite a bolt in rib but more like a crease in the metal.)
The parachute as Paul called it is exactly what got me thinking about the whole deal... that and reading about a C5er a couple months ago that was stuck behind a C3 and the rough air that was coming off of it (no spare...)
I've also been looking into how you can lower the rear without decreasing suspension travel, and it looks like the only way to do that is to lift the differential mounting points up a good bit... leaving the suspension mostly the same just changing the relation of the pivot point (differential) to the body. This would... I hope... let the rear of the car be lower to the ground giving less room for air under the car.
The way I'm thinking of attaching the panels... is to add studs to the underside of the frame rails so you could use a wingnut or lock washer to hold the panel up... then use a rubber gasket of some type to provide a seal around the pan.
More then likely the whole bit is just a solution waiting for a problem, given the fact that these things went over 200 on the lemans circuits... but Ideally a clean underside would let us have an edge on the track against later model cars. :yesnod:
The parachute as Paul called it is exactly what got me thinking about the whole deal... that and reading about a C5er a couple months ago that was stuck behind a C3 and the rough air that was coming off of it (no spare...)
I've also been looking into how you can lower the rear without decreasing suspension travel, and it looks like the only way to do that is to lift the differential mounting points up a good bit... leaving the suspension mostly the same just changing the relation of the pivot point (differential) to the body. This would... I hope... let the rear of the car be lower to the ground giving less room for air under the car.
The way I'm thinking of attaching the panels... is to add studs to the underside of the frame rails so you could use a wingnut or lock washer to hold the panel up... then use a rubber gasket of some type to provide a seal around the pan.
More then likely the whole bit is just a solution waiting for a problem, given the fact that these things went over 200 on the lemans circuits... but Ideally a clean underside would let us have an edge on the track against later model cars. :yesnod:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (terryrudy)
My 993 has a smooth underside. Funny thing is that many recommend removing the underbody panel under the engine for heat dissipation/engine longevity. Also makes the engine sound louder. :)
-terry
-terry
:cheers:
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 88,393
Likes: 2
From: eville in
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (ZD75blue)
i'd start with a tray first, just design it to work with a susp. mod, your only
going to be able to do so much and it still be (safely) streetable, without
dragging your work off, also if you get to much in the back you will increase
nose lift
going to be able to do so much and it still be (safely) streetable, without
dragging your work off, also if you get to much in the back you will increase
nose lift
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Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (comp)
i'd start with a tray first, just design it to work with a susp. mod, your only
going to be able to do so much and it still be (safely) streetable, without
dragging your work off, also if you get to much in the back you will increase
nose lift
going to be able to do so much and it still be (safely) streetable, without
dragging your work off, also if you get to much in the back you will increase
nose lift
Guess I'll have to install some 600lb inch springs in the back to keep the back in the same spot :jester
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (ZD75blue)
Another question for those in the know...
If I were to put a pan under the engine with cutouts for the suspension and just vented the hood, would I still be able to cool the engine?
Imagine a seal at the firewall forcing the hot air through some vents by the cowl... so all air coming through the radiator gets shoved through the vents! Only problem I can see is that in doing this at high speeds one might blow their hood off :steering:
If I were to put a pan under the engine with cutouts for the suspension and just vented the hood, would I still be able to cool the engine?
Imagine a seal at the firewall forcing the hot air through some vents by the cowl... so all air coming through the radiator gets shoved through the vents! Only problem I can see is that in doing this at high speeds one might blow their hood off :steering:
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 2
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (comp)
I'm interested in underbody aerodynamics as well, but it is a complicated study.
As far as sealing the engine compartment and forcing the air out the top - won't work. The area in front of the windsheild is a high pressure zone, this is why cowl induction works. You need to vent it elsewhere. You can vent through the gills in the front fenders, you can pipe it to the back and dump it in the negative pressure zone behind the car to reduce drag. You just have to ensure you are venting into a low pressure zone - not a surface that crates backpressure like the windsheild.
Ryan
As far as sealing the engine compartment and forcing the air out the top - won't work. The area in front of the windsheild is a high pressure zone, this is why cowl induction works. You need to vent it elsewhere. You can vent through the gills in the front fenders, you can pipe it to the back and dump it in the negative pressure zone behind the car to reduce drag. You just have to ensure you are venting into a low pressure zone - not a surface that crates backpressure like the windsheild.
Ryan
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (reidry)
I'm interested in underbody aerodynamics as well, but it is a complicated study.
As far as sealing the engine compartment and forcing the air out the top - won't work. The area in front of the windsheild is a high pressure zone, this is why cowl induction works. You need to vent it elsewhere. You can vent through the gills in the front fenders, you can pipe it to the back and dump it in the negative pressure zone behind the car to reduce drag. You just have to ensure you are venting into a low pressure zone - not a surface that crates backpressure like the windsheild.
Ryan
As far as sealing the engine compartment and forcing the air out the top - won't work. The area in front of the windsheild is a high pressure zone, this is why cowl induction works. You need to vent it elsewhere. You can vent through the gills in the front fenders, you can pipe it to the back and dump it in the negative pressure zone behind the car to reduce drag. You just have to ensure you are venting into a low pressure zone - not a surface that crates backpressure like the windsheild.
Ryan
I guess the other that might work is to remove the inner fenderwells and run vents in the tops of the fenders :crazy:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (comp)
you ain't right :lolg: :lolg: :lolg:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Re: Underbody Aerodynamics... (comp)
you'd better be damn serious not insain at 215, screw up and clean up with a
shovel :nopity
shovel :nopity
Plans for this car are:
Roll bar (6 point)
Safety harness
Racing buckets
Lots of horsepower :cool: