Headers - Block hugger or standard?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 273
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From: Murphy Texas
Headers - Block hugger or standard?
OK, if I'm going to install headers before the dual exhaust on my 77, which is better, or what are the pros and cons of block hugger headers vs. standard headers? Any thoughts? I'm so confused... :crazy:
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,446
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From: Not Correctly Restored Stingray Fla.
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (USA SHARK)
COMMON SENSE :crazy: If the headers are close to the block, might make the engine run hotter by a few degrees. Headers will be close to the oil filter, possibly higher oil temp. and possibly harder to change filter. Same goes for the starter. If the headers are close to the starter and you don't have a real good starter, well there is a new problem and also will be more difficult to change out. Do not know why you would want "hugger" headers.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 273
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From: Murphy Texas
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (lotahp)
Thanks for the feedback lotahp. I don't necessarily want hugger headers, just trying to understand the difference since both styles are offered. I thought there might be a benefit to one or the other and would like to fully learn before deciding. You have made a good point for standard.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
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From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (USA SHARK)
If you want to run the exhaust underneath the car I would strongly suggest hugger headers. If your engine is not in the 500+ horsepower category and you are running through mufflers, there won't be any appreciable difference in power vs. tuned length headers. All the tuned length headers I have seen hang very low and will give you serious clearance issues unless you raise the car. Personally I hate seeing C3 Vettes higher than 48" and think they look even better closer to 46" high. If I wanted the looks of a 4x4 I would have bought a 4x4.
The hugger headers will flow significantly better than the stock manifolds. The only tuned length headers that don't reduce ground clearance are the Hooker side pipes. I have given thought to changing my Hooker system to an underneath type. If they did make a hugger system for the BB I would be tempted. I doubt that I would lose more than 40 of my 500rwhp (~600hp at the crank) compared to my very free flowing Hookers with JCL baffles.
Chuck
The hugger headers will flow significantly better than the stock manifolds. The only tuned length headers that don't reduce ground clearance are the Hooker side pipes. I have given thought to changing my Hooker system to an underneath type. If they did make a hugger system for the BB I would be tempted. I doubt that I would lose more than 40 of my 500rwhp (~600hp at the crank) compared to my very free flowing Hookers with JCL baffles.
Chuck
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 8
From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (Corey 68)
.
I would agree if running open headers. With mufflers I doubt anyone could honestly tell the difference by the seat of the pants. Even if it's 10 horsepower/torque when installed it will probably be less soon after becuase of squashing the pipes going over speed bumps, up driveways, etc.
Chuck
Long tube headers make more torque than shortys. :yesnod:
Chuck
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Not Correctly Restored Stingray Fla.
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (Corey 68)
Oh so "hugger" headers are shorty headers. Well then there is no question about it. NORMAL long tube headers is deffinitly the way to go. My '73 Vette sit significantly lower than stock due to the front fiberglass spring and the light weight contol arms and my Lakewood bellhousing was lower than the headers. I now have Hooker sidepipes. But when I had the regular headers clearence was not a problem. Of course I'm not 4-wheelin' :D My opinion, shorty headers are nothing more than ported exhaust manifolds.
[Modified by lotahp, 5:21 PM 2/28/2004]
[Modified by lotahp, 5:21 PM 2/28/2004]
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: Murphy Texas
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (lotahp)
I was thinking of getting the Undercar Chambered Exhaust from MidAmerica which would run with no mufflers. They will fit stock manifolds but it states that fabrication is necessary with headers. Not sure about the huggers and wether or not they would fit without fabrication. I'm trying to install with as little extra work as needed.
Any thoughts on a chambered exhaust vs. regular with mufflers? This isn't a car I will be driving long distances, but I do want it for driving around town. I wouldn't imagine it would be any louder than sidepipes.
Thanks again for everyones input. I'm learning! :cheers:
Any thoughts on a chambered exhaust vs. regular with mufflers? This isn't a car I will be driving long distances, but I do want it for driving around town. I wouldn't imagine it would be any louder than sidepipes.
Thanks again for everyones input. I'm learning! :cheers:
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 842
Likes: 3
From: Woodruff SC
St. Jude Donor '10
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (USA SHARK)
Well here's my 2 cents!
I have Dynomax long tube headers with chambered exhaust. Have not had a problem with clearance. The sound is GREAT! Not too loud at all. Just like side pipes but run out the back. Mine were hooked to the original manifolds until I got headers. Just a sawzall and $40 to the muffler shop to hook them back up. I think Allen's stainless exhaust sells the chambered for a header set up that's a little cheaper than the stock manifold set up.
My 77 is a stock L-48 except intake and exhaust. And I did notice some difference in power, not much, but some. Any time you make one breathe better, it helps!!! Better gas mileage, too!!!!!!! :yesnod:
Go for it!!!!!
:cheers:
I have Dynomax long tube headers with chambered exhaust. Have not had a problem with clearance. The sound is GREAT! Not too loud at all. Just like side pipes but run out the back. Mine were hooked to the original manifolds until I got headers. Just a sawzall and $40 to the muffler shop to hook them back up. I think Allen's stainless exhaust sells the chambered for a header set up that's a little cheaper than the stock manifold set up.
My 77 is a stock L-48 except intake and exhaust. And I did notice some difference in power, not much, but some. Any time you make one breathe better, it helps!!! Better gas mileage, too!!!!!!! :yesnod:
Go for it!!!!!
:cheers:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 8
From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (DP77Vette)
There really isn't one answer. Power and noise levels are very subjective. There are very few people who have the numbers to back up either one for comparison. Everybody's butt meter is deferent too.
Chuck
Chuck
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,273
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From: Austin TX
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (USA SHARK)
Generally, long tube headers with 2.5 mandrel bend pipes, X crossover and high flow mufflers will help with HP at higher RPM. At lower RPM, the tests I've seen don't show much difference between OE (esp ram horn) and shortys.
Most of the shortys I have seen are on street rods where looks and clearance are major concerns.
Chambered pipes muffle by periodically reducing the diameter of the pipe - not good for high flow required by higher HP engines.
Most of the shortys I have seen are on street rods where looks and clearance are major concerns.
Chambered pipes muffle by periodically reducing the diameter of the pipe - not good for high flow required by higher HP engines.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 273
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From: Murphy Texas
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (flynhi)
Thanks everyone for all of the information. So it sounds like the best setup is standard headers with dual exhaust and high flow mufflers. :seeya
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 23,360
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From: Virginia USA
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (USA SHARK)
These are full length "Block Hugger" style if you will.
I suspect they flow a little less than tuned headers but for a mild street engine, I'll agree that you probably not notice any seat-of-the-pants difference.
I suspect they flow a little less than tuned headers but for a mild street engine, I'll agree that you probably not notice any seat-of-the-pants difference.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 8
From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (theandies)
Theandies,
I think many of us are getting into semantics here, but I would personally call the headers you showed, "convenience headers". Not equal length, but long style, made with an emphasis on ease of manufacturer to keep price down.
I would need to see an actual chassis dyno run comparing shorty/hugger headers to full length tuned headers on an average Corvette engine to believe that there is even 10 horsepower difference when running through exhaust pipes and mufflers. Normal exhaust backpressure cancels out a great deal of the wave siphoning action of tuned length headers.
The biggest advantage that both the tuned length and the shorty headers give over factory manifolds is a much larger smooth exit pipe dumping into a much larger collector flange.
Chuck
[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 9:12 AM 2/29/2004]
I think many of us are getting into semantics here, but I would personally call the headers you showed, "convenience headers". Not equal length, but long style, made with an emphasis on ease of manufacturer to keep price down.
I would need to see an actual chassis dyno run comparing shorty/hugger headers to full length tuned headers on an average Corvette engine to believe that there is even 10 horsepower difference when running through exhaust pipes and mufflers. Normal exhaust backpressure cancels out a great deal of the wave siphoning action of tuned length headers.
The biggest advantage that both the tuned length and the shorty headers give over factory manifolds is a much larger smooth exit pipe dumping into a much larger collector flange.
Chuck
[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 9:12 AM 2/29/2004]
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 8
From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (Chuck Harmon)
A point that I should add for comparison is that my ZO6 has exhaust manifolds about equal to most shorty headers. The addition of full length tuned headers is supposed to add 12-15 rwhp. This is on a car that makes 350rwhp stock, considerably more than the L82 that is the subject of this question. Again, I doubt that an average small block will find even that much gain from tuned headers over the shorty's.
Chuck
Chuck
7th Gear
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Cashton WI
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (Chuck Harmon)
So is it even worth the cost to get headers, or would sticking with the stock manifolds and just getting dual exhaust be a better, price/performance choice.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,286
Likes: 8
From: San Jose California
Re: Headers - Block hugger or standard? (mobiux)
There is a big advantage to upgrading from factory cast iron manifolds. Even if you use 2.5" pipes, the iron manifold is still a real choke point. They usually only have a 2" opening at the flange to the pipe! But unless you are running open exhaust I just don't think there is much if any advantage going to full length headers instead of shorty's.
Look at all the full length header ads in the C4 and C5 sections of magazines and the web. They only boast around 12hp over the newer smooth steel shorty's manifolds that are now used by the factory. That's a lot of money for not much power and seriously scraped knuckles. If I was taking the engine out anyway or changing the heads, sure why not go for the headers too. But as a lone upgrade, there are easier and cheaper ways to get that kind of increased power.
Keep in mind that when you are modifying something like a L82, there isn't any one simple or inexpensive item that is going to transform 175rwhp into 350rwhp, except NO2, but that's too easy. :smash:
Chuck
Look at all the full length header ads in the C4 and C5 sections of magazines and the web. They only boast around 12hp over the newer smooth steel shorty's manifolds that are now used by the factory. That's a lot of money for not much power and seriously scraped knuckles. If I was taking the engine out anyway or changing the heads, sure why not go for the headers too. But as a lone upgrade, there are easier and cheaper ways to get that kind of increased power.
Keep in mind that when you are modifying something like a L82, there isn't any one simple or inexpensive item that is going to transform 175rwhp into 350rwhp, except NO2, but that's too easy. :smash:
Chuck