Yes im am joking! I don't have a BB but I got the zz4 which is good enough for me! If I want to feel torque ill jump on my crotch rocket!

 

Paul opened the can of worms IRT 327 vs. 350. My take on it is my current 327 winds up twice as fast as any 350 I've previously owned. I like it alot better than the, L-46 or L-82. Minnie mouse or not.

 

I would not even consider building a 427 BB. Now you can get that many cubes in a SB.

Yeah, you can do a 427 SBC, IF you have a water-cooled checkbook... It'll still have tiny valves compared to what a BBC can run (to say nothing of port size).

The problems you run into when building a 454 or 502 is rod angularity. The smaller the rod length/stroke ratio, the lower the engine can go up to before significant side-loading of the cylinder walls become an issue... Above this point, the block can become unstable, the cylinder jackets will actually start to flex and become egg-shaped... And it'll also increase tensile stresses on the rods... 7000 RPM out of a stocker 454???

Ok, so you want a 454 or even a 496/502... To get the same RPM capabilities of the 427/396, you have to build the bottom end up a LOT. Which of course, means big $$$$.

Now, there are two ways to increase horse-power, if THAT is your goal: increase the operating RPM envelope of the engine, and/or increase the cubic inches. Keep in mind, that RPMs kill an engine FAR quicker than cylinder pressures. So, the more cubic inches you have to start with, the higher HP you have (all else being equal)...

But suppose you're like me: you want CRAZY horse-power, and don't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money. And further, suppose you want it to run on pump gas...

Option A: 427 SBC?
Option B: 427 OR 454, built to rev to the sky?
Option C: Stroker BBC engine.
Option D: BBC w/nitrous.
Option E: A run-of-the-mill BBC, with your basic strengthening on the bottom end, and forced induction.

Option A??? Riiight... That's a joke- you'll START with that, in a BBC. And, to add insult to injury, it'll cost you a fortune to build.
Option B??? For it to rev, you need a lot of "sexy" hardware, a radical cam, and race-gas. I define a car being "driveable" as something I could loan my mother, if she needed to get to the store... So, by this definition, such a configuration is not even close to being driveable...
Option C??? Since anything over 496 cubes starts to get prohibitively expensive ($2k+ for either a siamesed-cylinder and/or tall-deck block to handle the bigger bores and strokes), you're back to that water-cooled checkbook...
Option D: A Nitrous system might be good, but how LONG will the bottle last??? And then, of course, you're right back where you started....
Option E: YESSSSS!!!!!

I'm a cheap-skate. I want big-cubic-inch power, but I did NOT want to spend a bloody FORTUNE on all the "sexy" (read that as EXPENSIVE) hardware, just so the thing won't self-destruct...

To that end, I'm building a supercharged 427. As I detailed below, the bucks required to put the engine together (less the exhaust and cooling systems) should run in the neighborhood of $4500.

Costs (or values, if you wanted to duplicate this):
454 block (free, taken in trade a few years ago)................... $300
427 Crank and dimple-rods.................................... ............ $300
Heads (swapped wasted TH-400 + another $50)..................~$150
ARP hardware................................ ................................ $130
Speed-Pro flat-top pistons................................. .............. $400
Building heads (to be built with 2.25/1.88 valves, new guides)..$400
Holley carbs ((2) 1850-2, from Ebay, will build and cal).........~$300
Carb adapter plate (from Ebay, listing ~going-price)............ ~$ 60
Rebuilding of GMC 6-71 blower (already quoted)................. ~$250
Blower drive (incl. belts, pulleys, etc.).............................. ~$700
Weiand blower manifold (new, from discount dealer).............. $250
Machine-shop labor (estimated)............................. .........~$1000

Thank GOD for EBay, and being very selective in my purchases!!! I figure the engine will make (conservatively) 600 HP when dialed-in, and that IS on pump-gas.

Operating envelope will be off-idle to 5000 RPM, with red-line at 6000.

The only way to make those numbers on any small-block is with either nitrous or a blower.

If you can match this always-available combination for less money, I'll kiss your feet (while humbly mumbling "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy...")

 

But your 600 hp example has a blower too.

 

I will disagree with you on this....

I spent 4200.00 on a complete 533 cube short block, using all new parts...block, internal balanced crank, rods, solid roller, lifters, finish hone, balance, etc.

 

Nothing wrong with being low budget ,but your blower motor is going to be trying to breath thru a straw with those 1850 throwaway carbs.Put some real carbs on it and you might get600hp.You will always find more expenses than you think and buying cheap always comes back to bite you.From my experience I would build as big a motor as you can afford and if you want more supercharge or nitrous it later.A carbed 540 will run better than most blown motors 100cubes smaller,unless big money is spent on heads and valvetrain.Of course a blown 540 would be even better,or a 632 with a 14-71 like mine or?It never ends powerjunkies are addicts.

 

You're gonna loan... a blown 427... to your mother... to go to the store...

 

Yep, 600 HP (conservatively). Desktop dyno actually estimates 680HP, but I like to be conservative on such "vapor" calculations...

To get these kinds of numbers on a small block, it *would* require forced-induction or N20- and then be VERY radical on top of it (unstreetable). And, of course, for far more money.

Consider, that a 350 engine with a cast crank, 2-bolt main, nothing-rods and forged pistons (assuming 8:1 CR), can run ~6# boost, IF timing is strictly controlled, and the engine is not wound too tight... (1 + (6/14.7) X 350 = ~ 493 cubic inches. So the blower fakes out the engine to think it has more cubes than it does. 500 HP out of small-block becomes attainable, without a lot of high-$ trickery.

Granted, such an engine (at 6# of boost) is of marginal quality- a forged crank, pink rods and ARP hardware would go a LONG way to making it more durable, but you get my point...

Do the same thing to a 427 BBC (which can be built for cheap), add a few little things to assure the bottom-end is sound, and you can move up to 8# of boost, yielding an engine that THINKS it is 660 cubes, and not 427... So, the 680 HP estimated by DD2000, is actually quite tame, if this were a 660 c.i. engine. Again, I wanted power like stink, but I wanted driveability, and pump-gas ability.

Such would not be the case, with a SBC.

And you're only about half-way to a complete engine...

How much more are you going to spend, for the right heads to go on top of that engine, intake, carb(s), roller rockers, the solid roller springs, retainers and keepers, etc., etc., etc....? After all, Brodix aluminum heads are $2000+, Dart and Trick Flow >=$2500.

Please don't misunderstand me- I'm NOT trying to start a whizzing-contest. My education is in the nuclear engineering field (when I was younger), and a finance degree later... So I am a certified cheap-skate! I spend more time analyzing the "bang for the buck" calculations...

Look at it this way:

Bill Mitchell Hardcore engines sells their 540 BBC short-block assembled, for $4800, which tracks pretty closely to your cost... Their complete, ready-to-run 540BBC (650HP) sells for $10,000. If you can beat them equally on price, with the same quality items, you're still looking at spending another $4500.

 

My 427 is bored 60 over with JE Pistons and Eagle Rods.
IT revs to 7500 like a small block.
Both engines are cool.
I would go for a 540 or 555 just because they have become
more reasonable to build in terms of the cost of hard parts,
crank, rods, pistons, 502 blocks ect.

Good luck,
Joe

 

I've spent $00.00 on teh head and intake...using existing parts. $4200.00 is my cash outlay for a running 533.00.

I learned long long time ago, going cheap cost more in the long run than bitting the bullet and going new right off the bat.

Let me back track...searching my memory banks....I paid 1050.00 for the 502 bare block back in 2001. I assume today's prices it's more, but that's a barometer...junk yard 2 bolt bare block vs new 502 4 bolt, everything else equal. You do the math....in the long run, who is farther ahead.

Like you, I'm a cheap skate...I scoured the swap meets, I was able to buy Comp Cams 288 AR street roller cam, lifters, and springs for chump change...new, same with the 427 Fluidamper...that was a steal for a new unit. The heads, they may not flow what the current ones flow, and I know I'm leaving H.P. on the table, but they will flow better than a junk yard dog cast iron head. Yea, they are Aluminum, older design, the 077's but the car runs and runs and goes up extremely steel hills in th gear without downshifting, idles at 800, pulls 14 inches of vacuum, on demand throttle....so, what else can a man want for $4200.00? I may not be top dog, but I sure as hell ain't no hamburger meat either.

 

I will have to jump in here just a tad lol. If anyone around here is 40+ then they will remember lol. Back in the day the 427 was a great engine you could build them cheaply and rev high rpm and make lots of power but then again we had High Lead High Octain fuel at the pumps of 100 to 104 and that was pump gas. But now the gas is well almost good enough to use in a lantern lol so to make up for the poor gas and the reduced compression we must live with cubic inches is the way to go. Yes you loose rpm but you gain what is needed most Grunt. Now dont get me wrong I miss hearing a Big Block turning 8500 or 9000 rpm but you can get the same thing done with less gear which means stronger and much less rpm and increased engine life. A friend of mine builds a very nice Big Block that is 604CI and find that to be a fantastic street engine. On pump gas in street trim those little Motors are putting out 750HP to 775HP which is not too shabby. You could build the 708CI but I would not wish that on a person that I hate lol. And really I do not think it would fit in a Vette lol. Now dont get me wrong the 708CI is a nice engine but the parts are expensive not to mention assembly time which everything has to be custom fit. But if you want Grunt

Now all that being said I will still stick with the little 454 warmed over some to make about 550HP to 600HP on pump gas that will rev nice to 6500rpm and do that reliably.

 

GDaina, I think SHAKERATTLEROLL hit the nail on the head...

Bottom line is simple: today's gas SUX, and the only way to resolve the issue is with more cubes.

You do it with a stroker (GOOD prices, BTW), I'm doing it with a blower. In the end, we're heading down the same effective path...

And, like you, I decided to forgo some expenses- like a 4-bolt main. My reasoning is that, as long as I'm running a cam that is spent by 6000, and boost levels that won't get ridiculous, what's the point? Of course, the block is being line-honed, decked, and studded... The rotating ***'y is balanced, and all the major components were magnafluxed. I may not like to spend dollars needlessly, but I will spend them where they're needed...

And finally- again, like you- I won't be the top-dog, but I'll be able to run near the front of the pack... And have a ball, doing it!

One last thing, of course... I've always wanted to do a blown BBC. But this is the only car I've had that TRULY deserves to run one... So how could I say no???

 

I'm new to the forum and am intrigue by all the comments. I love my 502! It has all I want in torque and speed for the street. I'm able to turn low 12's easily on the strip. My advise is go with the most cubes you can afford and build it from there. Remember there are no substitutes for cubic inches!

 

Hey Norval, when you upgrade I want first dibs on your 454

-Roy

 

Those Items I skipped, though the magnafluxing I should have done for peace of mind, but since all items were new, I took the chance and skipped that process....

Now, add the price of the block, lets assume 500 for block and crank and another 250 for the above service? I'm assuming 100 for the studs, 100 for line hone and 50 for magnaflux? Oh yea, forgot, you have to bore the block...what's the price for a bore? Certainly you're not going to just hone it...let's assume 250 for the .030 bore...now you have a 1000 into the block and crank ready for assembly. My bare block cost 1050, and the crank was 750....a difference of 800.00 and 73 more cubes assuming the .030 bore boosts the displacement to 460 cubes.

Now is 800.00 worth an extra 70+ cubes that includes a brand new, never used short block? You know what they say....cubes rule....the nice part, if I choose, the option for a blower is still there, though pistons will have to be changed.

Anyway, you and I are striving for the same goal, but using different direction to get there.

 

It'd be interesting to see what kind of trap-speeds we can get at the races...

Obviously, I'd tend to ignore the 1/4-mile times, because we both know the Vettes are heavily limited by traction...

I imagine I'll have mine up and rolling in about 3 months, but it'll be another 3 months of work to get the bodywork completed (I don't like taking a POS-looking car to the track)...

You post yours, I'll post mine, and we'll see... Besides... it ought to be a LOT of fun at the track (as long as I don't get booted for safety violations, LOL)....

 

Fantastic street engine?! :shocked: Man what streets are you driving on cause I want to be there!

How common is it for engine builders to Magnaflux brand new parts? Or more importantly how common is it to find defects in brand new parts?

 

how common is it to find defects in brand new parts?

Not too often... But it DOES happen, occasionally.
That's the whole point of selling engines with a warranty.

Classic example- the new Ramjet 502 is a lovely piece of machinery, that retails for $10K, complete. But the first series of this engine has a serious programming bug in the EFI, which will cause the engine to load up, stall and then quit, when at idle, in gear (auto-trans). The EFI will pour fuel into the engine, and it'll turn your eyes red, and the air blue, standing behind the car. Off-idle to 5500 RPM, it runs like stink. But it's a POS around town, when you actually have to STOP...

GM will tell you it's everything under the sun... But they refuse to admit to the software bug, even though we WERE able to isolate it to that (through several weeks of trouble-shooting)...

So yeah, brand-new parts- and even brand-new crate engines- can have bugs...

 

Thought I might as well step into the frey. I love my 427. It revs like a small block but has the torque of a BB. It is easier to build a bigger engine that makes more power with much greater civility. There are more powerful engines owned by guys on this forum, but not too many. I don't feel any shame with just under 500rwhp.

I have never been one to believe that you can have too much power; but, from a practical perspective my tires really have a very hard time holding on to the power I've got below 100mph. More power would only give me greater bragging rights. Something that is of interest to me but not something I would be able to use much in application.

I also feel high horsepower is easier to control on a road course than torque when racing. But mega torque from a 600+ cubic inch motor makes lazy driving very easy, you almost never need to shift.

Chuck

 

Awhile ago, I took my niece for a drive. Had to get some gas. I showed her the way we used to fill cars with the wide open filler neck where you could see the fuel level rising. She had never seen this before{26YR old}. Flipped her the keys, said you drive home. She was thrilled to drive the vette cause she remembered driving in it as a young'in. She pulls out of the station,uphill,no bog, smooth. I tell her "you know you're in THIRD gear", she's shocked the car didn't puke. 454 TORQUE strikes again.