matching no.s?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 179
Likes: 1
From: gainesville florida
matching no.s?
Hi, I need some advice.
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 179
Likes: 1
From: gainesville florida
Hi, I need some advice.
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw[/QUOTE]
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw[/QUOTE]
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 0
From: Moon Township PA
Originally Posted by tarheeljww
Hi, I need some advice.
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
I have a 71 coupe that is a project car, and has the original motor, but the block is shot, as in, unrepairable.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
Gary
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
Likes: 263
From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
Originally Posted by tarheeljww
Hi, I need some advice.
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
I am thinking of ordering a "crate" engine from Chevy, a ZZ4 to be exact, and have been told that I can have it stamped and retain my matching no. distinction.
Is that correct?
I know there is a forge date on the original block so that would never match with a new engine.
I don't ever want to unknowingly or ignorantly misrepresent something to someone.
It makes sense to me that there ought to be a way to acceptably be able to do this.
Any advice or experience is greatly apreciated.
Thanks,
Jw
others may disagree with me.... but ..... any stamping of numbers to reflect something that its not is unethical.....and bordering on fraud... although you may not misrepresent it what about future purchasers/sellers??? any way you may get more "value" with the correct ZZ4 numbers in it...
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 19,610
Likes: 778
From: Forked River NJ
Not only the casting dates would be wrong but so would all the other numbers on it. Don't worry about matching numbers unless you are going to be going to NCRS events. To me that is kind of boring going around seeing if all the bolt heads are correct. Just put in the motor and enjoy the car.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,720
Likes: 12
From: Chattanooga TN
Originally Posted by Gordonm
Not only the casting dates would be wrong but so would all the other numbers on it. Don't worry about matching numbers unless you are going to be going to NCRS events. To me that is kind of boring going around seeing if all the bolt heads are correct. Just put in the motor and enjoy the car.
Why pay big bucks to stamp something that is obviously wrong for the car. The center-bolt valve covers will give it away as soon as the hood opens.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 179
Likes: 1
From: gainesville florida
Thanks Guys,
I do apreciate the input.
To answer some questios, No, I do not intend to show the car as it's never going to be that good.
I am shooting for original as possible , but with some compremises toward progress. { CD player, electroic ignition ect.}
The Crate ZZ4 engine is as close to the original as I can find in horse power, but the 350/330hp is probably closer to what the oringinal had inside.
I only intend to drive and have fun, so point taken, I was getting caught up in the hype.
Thanks again.
Jw
I do apreciate the input.
To answer some questios, No, I do not intend to show the car as it's never going to be that good.
I am shooting for original as possible , but with some compremises toward progress. { CD player, electroic ignition ect.}
The Crate ZZ4 engine is as close to the original as I can find in horse power, but the 350/330hp is probably closer to what the oringinal had inside.
I only intend to drive and have fun, so point taken, I was getting caught up in the hype.
Thanks again.
Jw
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 1
I don't think it makes much sense to "re-stamp" a crate motor. What someone may have suggested to you is getting a replacement block of the correct and original vintage, configuration, equipment, etc. and have your "matching" numbers restamped there.
As far as I'm concerned, that's not fraud. What is fraud is taking a small-block car and "re-stamping" it as a big block car, or taking a 350/300 car and "re-stamping" it as an LT1 car. In these cases, you're passing the car off as something it's not.
BTW, 1971 is the last year you can try that kind of forgery. In 1972 there was an engine designator in the VIN, so the effort to pull off the fraud becomes a bit more involved.
As far as I'm concerned, that's not fraud. What is fraud is taking a small-block car and "re-stamping" it as a big block car, or taking a 350/300 car and "re-stamping" it as an LT1 car. In these cases, you're passing the car off as something it's not.
BTW, 1971 is the last year you can try that kind of forgery. In 1972 there was an engine designator in the VIN, so the effort to pull off the fraud becomes a bit more involved.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,023
Likes: 2
From: TEXASTEXASTEXASTEXAS TEXASTEXASTEXASTEXAS
St. Jude Contributor
As far as I'm concerned, that's not fraud. What is fraud is taking a small-block car and "re-stamping" it as a big block car, or taking a 350/300 car and "re-stamping" it as an LT1 car. In these cases, you're passing the car off as something it's not
JB
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
Likes: 263
From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
Originally Posted by JB
I disagree--NOM can take several thousand dollars off the value of some cars. I'm pretty confident that at some point, most restamped engines are going to be represented as original when they're sold, even if not by the first guy. And I have a hard time believing that most people who go to the trouble are doing it just for shiz & grins--they're doing it to represent the car as having an original engine, IMHO.
JB
JB
what is the purpose of restamping an engine???? to make it look like something its not!!!! the engine is what it is.... and any manipulation of that fact is unethical and fraudulent! Misrepresentation and fraud is way to common in this industry and this is a classic example of the proverbial " slippery slope".
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,527
Likes: 1
From: St. Petersburg, Fl///Columbus, Ohio
Originally Posted by bobs77vet
i agree!!!!!!!!!
what is the purpose of restamping an engine???? to make it look like something its not!!!! the engine is what it is.... and any manipulation of that fact is unethical and fraudulent! Misrepresentation and fraud is way to common in this industry and this is a classic example of the proverbial " slippery slope".
what is the purpose of restamping an engine???? to make it look like something its not!!!! the engine is what it is.... and any manipulation of that fact is unethical and fraudulent! Misrepresentation and fraud is way to common in this industry and this is a classic example of the proverbial " slippery slope".
100%
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,103
Likes: 0
From: Tucson AZ
Originally Posted by bobs77vet
i agree!!!!!!!!!
what is the purpose of restamping an engine???? to make it look like something its not!!!! the engine is what it is.... and any manipulation of that fact is unethical and fraudulent! Misrepresentation and fraud is way to common in this industry and this is a classic example of the proverbial " slippery slope".
what is the purpose of restamping an engine???? to make it look like something its not!!!! the engine is what it is.... and any manipulation of that fact is unethical and fraudulent! Misrepresentation and fraud is way to common in this industry and this is a classic example of the proverbial " slippery slope".
Not saying I agree with the process, but fraud is only an accurate term IF the owner is trying to pass the engine off as original and it is not OR the owner is representing the car for something it isn't (LT-1 instead of a base engine).
As to whether future sellers misrepresent the car is not the current owners/sellers concern. Though the high moral road would be to not restamped to avoid such a possibility.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
Likes: 263
From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
Originally Posted by Robert N
What about restamping what is known to be the original engine that had the numbers accidently or inadvertently removed when a block is decked? "
Not saying I agree with the process, but fraud is only an accurate term IF the owner is trying to pass the engine off as original and it is not OR the owner is representing the car for something it isn't (LT-1 instead of a base engine).
As to whether future sellers misrepresent the car is not the current owners/sellers concern. Though the high moral road would be to not restamped to avoid such a possibility.
Not saying I agree with the process, but fraud is only an accurate term IF the owner is trying to pass the engine off as original and it is not OR the owner is representing the car for something it isn't (LT-1 instead of a base engine).
As to whether future sellers misrepresent the car is not the current owners/sellers concern. Though the high moral road would be to not restamped to avoid such a possibility.
as for the second assertion what would be a legitimate purpose of restamping an engine with different numbers other then for misrepresentation?
as for the third assertion if a person sells the vehicle with a clear title (as opposed to a "salvage title" ) with a collection of parts that misrepresent what it trully is ...the deception has started down that slippery slope. it is certainly unethical and i respectfully disagree with your contention that what happens after the sale is not the current owners concern. for it not to matter the disclosures would have to be of a permanent nature hence the salvage title idea.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 26,545
Likes: 46
From: Huntersville NC
This engine is not being RE-stamped. He is proposing putting some numbers on the engine somewhere. What are we talking about? Does the ZZ4 have a blank pad up front where you can stamp the vin derivative? If you want to stamp a vin derivative on your ZZ4 or stencil your SS# on the valve covers it is fine with me. I don't think a ZZ4 is going to look much like the original engine.
I have come to believe that it is an acceptable part of the restoration process to use replacement parts, including engines, and make them look like the original equipement, including all the stickers and numbers that were on the parts when they came from the factory. It is up to the buyer to determine if the restored car is "original" or not. Caveat emptor.
I have come to believe that it is an acceptable part of the restoration process to use replacement parts, including engines, and make them look like the original equipement, including all the stickers and numbers that were on the parts when they came from the factory. It is up to the buyer to determine if the restored car is "original" or not. Caveat emptor.