exactly what do you mean by awesome? Is your opinion that the road feel is better than stock? Or do you just like the wheel to turn easy?

 

SignGuy I remember you telling me a while back that you had a slight binding and you didn't really mind it. If I'm wrong I then I give you my sincerest apologies. But I am pretty certain

 

If you're right on the edge of binding and you go around a corner real hard with some frame flex......whats gonna happen?

OH CRAP

 

I hate to agree with TurtleVette but I'll have to agree this time. Been on this Forum for years and since this product came out it was plainly obvious this was never a bolt in kit. Many have had to shave this, cut that, custom build, bend, fabricate this, brace that etc. etc. The buyers said this NOT ME. I have no doubt that it is a good product but when I pay $1300.00 plus it should work out of the box period!

Remember my 68 vert was the test platform car for Speed Direct's Sharkbite coil-overs (see me in the Aug 04 Corvette Fever magazine issue) a product they sold which involved parts made by 2 different reputable vendors namely AFCO Racing shocks and Q something springs sold under Speed Direct and it was the most painfull 4-month hiatus I have ever endured and after 10 technicians including the top staff at Speed Direct no one could figure out the problem and I went back to stock springs/ shocks...problem disappeared. WOW maybe GM pays those engineers good salaries for a reason. And thus 1000 hours of my time went unpaid/ unrewarded. So please bare with me when I question Speed Direct. I earned that right.

Again every problem I mentioned above were brought up by buyers of that Steeroids not by my or any other's proding. Hell I may even buy the Steeroids but only after the design flaws have been removed.

 

Turtle, I say less road 'feel', but I meant less tracking in road ruts, especially noticeable with wide tires....
Jim Shea commented, way I understand/understood his email of some time ago....he said the controll valve in the rack is in fact a small diameter rod that twists in the input shaft, thereby keying the pump for assist....same function as the controll valve in our stock setup....ok....seems logical...
but when you think about it, the stock valve has to have slop in it, otherwise there is no room to pass the fluids, or have a neutral balance, as with adj. nut on the end....that valve is stuck right there in the middle from the pittman arm and effectively to the knuckles, via drag link and tie rods...so road feedback from ruts, say, is felt at that valve, I say...with wide tires it was MUCH worse a feel,/feedback....fighting the wheel...
now with the input shaft being the boss over the rack, I would think the road feedback from ruts would be much less, and it is....other than cost/weight...I bet that's why modern cars have racks allmost exclusivly....

Jim's comment was restricted to the operation of the rack internal controll valving, NOT road feel/rut reactions....

GENE

 

If you think about the way the various steering systems operate:

The C2/C3 power assist system has the control valve right on the end of the relay rod. It has a slide valve and coil springs to control the direction and the amount of assist. This slide valve should be directly affected by road feedback since it is right on the relay rod and it moves inline with the relay rod motions. This might be why with wider modern tires and roadways that have truck troughs the older Corvettes seem to "takeoff" and have a mind of their own. The linear valve on the end of the relay rod has to move a finite distance before assist can be provided. This linear "lost motion" now becomes multiplied by the manual gear ratio (16:1) since it is on the output side of the gear. Lastly, the assist flows and pressures called for by the control valve have to travel through rubber hoses in order to move the piston in the assist cylinder back and forth. There definately could be a certain amount of lag time in the assist. The C2/C3 steering column connects directly to the manual gear through a fairly stiff flexible coupling (this is good design practice).

A typical Saginaw rack and pinion gear (such as the Speed Direct, remanufactured, Saginaw, center-take-off, R&P) has a torsion bar, small diameter, low mass, rotary control valve. That valve is located between the steering column and the intersection of the rack and pinion. Now any lost motion in the rotary valve is applied directly to the steering column/steering wheel on a 1:1 basis. Road feedback has to progress through the tie rods, into the rack, and through the mesh of the rack to the pinion before entering the rotary control valve. One other difference is that the R&P control valve provides flow and pressure through steel lines directly to the assist piston on the rack. There should be less damping, less lag time from valve to piston. The R&P system requires several universal joints to carry the steering wheel motion to the steering gear.

So again, some basic differences between the C2/C3 power assist system and a rack to pinion are as follows:
1). The C2/C3 linear valve lost motion is multiplied by the 16:1 manual gear ratio.
2). The R&P system has a low mass rotary valve mounted in the gear but directly between the rack and the steering column. Lost valve motion is at a 1:1 ratio.
3). R&P assist fluid reaches the piston through steel lines rather than rubber hoses.
4). You would expect somewhat more damping with a R&P system since road feedback has to be transmitted through the rack to pinion mesh before reaching the rotary valve.
5). The production C2/C3 steering system has a much more direct connection between the steering column/steering wheel and the gear than a typical R&P system in the same car.
6). Power assist "effort and feel" is quite remote with the C2/C3 system since it is controlled by compression springs and is on the output side of the gear. R&P assist "effort and feel" is much more direct, since it is controlled by a torsion bar* that is mounted between the steering column/steering wheel and the gear.

* Effort and feel are also affected by the machining of the valve itself and also somewhat by the amount of fluid flow from the pump. But for brevity, I have just mentioned the torsion bar size versus compression springs as the primary controlling factor.

* One other system to be considered would be the Saginaw 600 integral power steering gear. It might have the best characteristics of both of the above systems. However, I have noted a basic drawback - in the 600 systems that I have seen so far. The 600 gear pitman and input shafts cannot be located exactly in the same position as the C2/C3 manual gear. This will result in compromises as to steering linkage relay rod location and the ability to directly connect the gear to the steering column with a minimum angle. I have not evaluated just how significant these two facts are.

 

From my understanding of the stock system, it would be better to have lower pressure at highway speeds? Then it sounds like someone should work on a pressure valve that gives full pump pressure until say 2000 rpm then cuts it down. Would that help road feel?

 

Do you mean the clinking sound, which was the spring becoming unloaded from being cut too short and the fact that ride height couldn't be adjusted lower because of their cheap azz mount on top of the arm with those 2 little pathetic bolts that would not handle a hanging mount in ahighly dynamically stressed component such as a suspension component...they couldn't figure that out? If that's the cae they shouldn't be selling this stuff at all. I don't want to be negative about something but the rack joint setup and that coil over setup must have been one of the worst design things I've seen in a long time (and for that money)

Now, take a look at the jim meyers kit again...some people mentioned in the above text could actually learn something just from looking at it.

 

I'm installing the Van Steel QA1 Semi coilovers right now. I hope I don't have the same problem you had. The only weak link looks like the lower A-arm mount which will be fine for daily driving.

As far as the rack and pinion, I will be designing my own set up using stock GM product. I'm sick of the white knuckle driving experience on black top roads. Even will all new suspension parts, it feel way to unsafe for my liking.

 

TT, I do have to agree with you about the input linkage to the racks, but in fact the largest problems is to do with headers clearing, and I cna't see any reason it should bind, but for misalignment due to headers.....maybe I B rong, but, from what I hear.....

on the CTO rack adaptor plate, I still have some questions about torque loading, and since the best solution/answer to my question would involve a video camera over a severe test track....well, that's outta the question, so is the answer....I wanna know that it's not putting too much torque due to angles/ackerman at any given situation...

I know MY install has unequal length tie rods, but I still that that nagging question about that rack center adaptor plate....

frankly, some day maybe I can yet again re doo the mounts and move that rack over one inch to equal out my tie rods....but truth be known I feel it's jerking off....

GENE

 

My Steeroids R&C is fine. Using the original pump and is not over assisted. There are a number of things that can make your steering feel not right such as not having the toe set right or running to much negative camber which among other things increases tramlineing.

I did notice the other day that my lower steering column bushing has about a 1/16" side to side play in it. So, time to pull the column and replace what I assume is a bushing. This situation adds a little feeling of slop in the neutral steering position.

 

My dad's miata has a variable power assist and it's wonderful. You let go of the steering wheel on the high way and it doesn't move and it's very responsive. They did a nice job.

My Q: I did a PS delete; what problems will I run into with the conversion?

Bry

 

I know that this may not sound correct. HOWEVER, TRUST ME, this is how a power steering system works. It is not the amount of pressure that the pump produces that gives you a light steering feel. It is the gear valve characteristics that give you steering feel.

Steering effort is mostly controlled by the torsion bar in the gear valve. The torsion bar can't be changed without special hydraulic equipment to balance the valve.

Next, steering effort is controlled by the design of the porting in the gear valve.

Lastly, steering effort is controlled by the amount of flow from the pump. High flows from the pump will cause the steering valve to be more responsive. Thus giving a lighter feel. However, you can't cut back the flow from the pump to a great degree because then you won't be able to make a rapid steering wheel movement. (For instance, trying to avoid something in the roadway).

The power steering hydraulic circuit is an open center system. The pump puts out a controlled continuous flow after about 1200 rpms.
Pressure is generated at the gear valve as you turn the steering wheel. You twist the torsion bar and actuate the valve which restricts flow from the pump and directs the pressure to either a right or left turn. The larger torsion bar diameter in the valve; the higher effort you have to excert on the steering wheel to attain a certain amount of actuation of the valve and generate power assist.

I suspect that there may be some variation in the gear valving that you receive in your rack and pinion steering from your supplier. The remanufactured rack and pinion gears began life in General Motors Cavalier, Grand Am, Corsica, Beratta, Achieva, etc. vehicles. Some of those gears had very high effort (sporty feel) valves. Others may have had very light effort (Granny) type valve designs. I do not know how the valve efforts in the remanufactured gears are specified or controlled.

The above could explain why most people seem to be satisfied with the effort or their rack and pinion gear installation while a few complain about light efforts.

 

i only half understand this term "road feel"...
sure...i dont want my car to feel as tho its on ice...
i DO want to feel the road in that manner...
but i sure as heck dont want it to feel like an old Mack truck either...

Steeroids simply makes my car a pleasure to drive...
it dosnt wander and it is very predictable...
i can drive at highway speeds and look around or talk to the passenger if i want to, knowing that when i look back at the highway, the highway will still be there...!!!
TOTALY unlike the stock steering even after most of it was replaced...
i remember when i would hit a bump in the road and wonder which direction my car was going to dart in afterwards...
or being totaly exhausted after a road trip because i had to constanly babysit the dam thing while driving it...

that is all gone now and has been for over a year since i installed Steeroids...
i drive my car daily if it is not raining and i take it on road trips...
as a matter of fact a couple of weeks ago, we put over 1600 miles on it in one weekend. going thru the mountains, cornering at G force speeds...it was simply awesome...
roads so curvy that i was actually yanking and sawing the wheel back and forth as tho on a slolom course all the while clutching, ****ing and punching the throttle...WOW! it was great!
i dont know what it takes to "twist" one of these frame, but if you can twist it by cornering, it was surely twisted that weekend! LOL
the handling is amazing and it steers "not too easy and not too hard"...
and i can drive it on the highway on long trips and im no more tired after hundreds of miles than when we take the Olsmobile...

------------------------------------------------------------------
"SignGuy I remember you telling me a while back that you had a slight binding and you didn't really mind it. If I'm wrong I then I give you my sincerest apologies. But I am pretty certain"

yes...i did experience some SLIGHT binding in the begining but worked it out...
i admit that is a PITA to deal with in the install but the end result is SO worth the benifit of having this system...
just as most of you, i tinker on my car quite often and i "tinkered" and readjusted and got it right...
yes...it IS a pain but again...it IS worth the effort...
as most of you will agree...good thing do not usually come easy...

i guess for me the bottom line was that i absolutely HATED the stock system...it is antique and even tho i do like owning an antique car, i like to modernize some of the features that i do not want to be antique...
that is why i have updated to a 5 speed trany and an updated carb (Baryy Grant)...
modernizing it makes it so much more fun to drive...
it may not be for everybody but it sure is for me...i love it and consider it one of my favorite upgrades...

 

this is good to hear! i start my install tomorrow and i hope i am as happy as you...

 

When I complained to them they offered me a new upper joint at regular coast and questioned my install witch really kicked me off.

 

when i went to reajust my toe, i found that the tie rods had siezed up onto the tie rod ends because i did not apply any anti sieze to them...
they sent me two new ones...free of charge...

BTW...i just got back from a ride of about 100 miles or so...
while driving i was thinking about this post and i realized that it isnt just the cornering that i like...its the ease of straight line driving too...
hold the wheel straight and the car goes straight, without wondering...

i also remembered the one thing that i do not care for...
the turning radius is much decreased...takes about an acre and a half to do a u turn! LOL oh well....

 

another negative,

this just keeps getting worse. Forget it.

BTW you mean increased.

 

When I went to the '92 vette 17 x9l5 rims all around, the turning radius was cut from stock tires, due to rubbing frame/sway bar...so I put in limit snubber blocks on the lower a arm to keep it cool.....guess what???

IT STILL HAD A CLOSER/NARROWER STEERING RADIUS THAN MY '87 DID....

so it's not an issue....pure and simple....

changing over to the rack at a later time, changed nothing....

GENE