Hello!! Dave (ddecart) here...experimenting with the whole thread split/merge capability of the new software. Looks like the merged threads were posted in order of posting (whoda thunk!) and the original post in this thread is down the page. So....for the benefit of everyone, the original post for the STS Turbo thread was this by master ho:

Anyone have any experience with these? Good? Bad? Ugly? I'm not sure about the intake filter hanging out behind the rear wheel(s)...

http://www.ststurbo.com/

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Not to off subject but smoked tires please tell me you didn't waste your money on a remote turbo setup right?

I don't like them at all, there are several problems with those like filter media getting wet, the turbine getting a thermal shock when cold water splashes onto it, oil drain problems, requiring an expensive scavenge pump (single stage dry sump), do not use those little bilge pumps some are using, the diaphragm will not stand up to hot oil for an extended period. But the biggest problem is lag. Some people thing that exhaust gas velocity is what drives the turbine and although partially true the majority of the energy is drawn from the exhaust gas as heat, as the gas expands in the snail housing. With the turbine mounted all the way to the rear the exhaust gas has cooled down considerably and also the long distance from the enfine will result in a delay for the flow pulse to reach it. Cost wise it's about the same price as a single front mount, I would mount my turbo up front and go from there.

 

TT, No I didn't buy that kit, though it was something that a friend of mine & I were kicking around before the kit even came out. The kit your speaking of has been having great results and magazine coverage here in the states. Oh, and the turbo I have mounted in my pic is much bigger than the one they're offering

The problem I face right now is that I had custom JE pistons made for my engine, and as it sits, I have 11-1 compression so I would need another set of piston custom made to lower the compression.

Lag wouldn't be a problem being that my car is a standard shift, the turbo would still be spooling between shifts so I would have instant boost going into each gear.

We looked at designing something for the oiling of the turbo and get away from an expensive scavenge pump (and TT you of all people using the word expensive in a Corvette thread ).

If you have an elbow mounted to the K&N air fliter, you can get it up and away from any water avoiding those issues. It really wouldn't be any different than the cold air intakes seen offered for many new vehicles.

 

The bigger the turbo the more problematic the lag. Also, I don't believe what they tell in magazines, it's all endorsed. Look at the dyno sheets, and then look where the boost comes in. I would not be surprised to see seconds of lag when opening the throttle, and I can tell you it gets annoying really quickly. Think about what I said about the heat driving the turbine, if you check exh temps on a normal engine you will see the difference between the exhaust pipes just after the head and where you have the turbo. The area where you have the turbine does not get real hot at all and wrapping the entire system to retain some heat is next to impossible.

The oil drain/scavenge is a thing not to be taken lightly, there should be absolutely no restriction in the return, the cartridge has a floating bearing setup (2 shells) that float on oil, any restriction will force the oil out there and it will contaminate the turbine and compressor

I have seen some mags rave about the sts kit (that's what it was right?? sts???).

I have a single stage scavenge pump which I will use in the future when I go full dry sump, no draining to the pan then.

I see you thought about most things but what about the turbine housing? When that thing is scorching hot and a splash of water hits it it will not like it, not at all.

 

I agree 100% about mag writeups, when the last time they gave a reviewed item a thumbs done

I also agree with the water on the hot turbo housing being a bad thing, but how much water actually gets kicked up near the differential when driving in the rain? I'd say that my car doesn't see rain, but anyone that drives their car has a chance of getting caught out in the wet A shield would be easy enough to fab and avoid this problem though.

The oiling is extremely important to the life of the turbo and yes shouldn't being taken lightly.

The lag I believe would be more evident with an automatic. With a standard shift, I get off the gas and the air charge exits thru the pressure relief valve until the throttle blades are opened again letting the air charge back into the motor all while the turbo is still spinning.

Here's some pics of some headers that were being fitted to the old motor before I pulled it. I'm just not sold on everything being crammed under the hood. Just routine things like sparkplug replacement and header snugging to avoid exhaust leaks, etc. seem to be much more involved with all the plumbing.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/mikeo//picture_050.jpg

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/mikeo//picture_053.jpg

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/mikeo//picture_055.jpg


Sorry, didn't mean to highjack the thread

 

The blow off valve does help to keep the turbine spooled up, it is necessary w/ a manual because the shockwave travelling off the closed throttle slows the compressor down and could even shatter it. However, if there's a spool up problem because of heat loss no other trick will cure it apart from a bang bang (those things that rallye cars have, igniting fuel upwards of turbine to keep it spooled up)
Now, I see where you're coming from concerning the spark plugs and stuff but here's a thing to consider. Side pipe headers like the stahls with the turbos mounted low at the end of the pipe, some shielding to protect from water and a scavenge pump. It's be the same as what you have now, only mounted further forward. It'd work best w/ 2 turbos or use 1 and run a crossover pipe under the pan.

This thread has been officially hghjacked oops

 

I remember seeing a BB with the Stahl style headers very nice car With the raer mount, you can use the stock single exhaust, or up grade to a 3" single to the turbo, or as I was thinking, run (2) 2.5" pipes side by side down the right side of the car then y just before the turbo for increased volicity

 

heat is the problem, not verlocity..heat heat heat heat LOL

A guy named Larry Stephens used to have (or has??) a race corvette w/ kinsler FI and turbos, all done by kinsler if I'm not mistaking. It uses shorties w/ pipes running down to the sides and a turbo mounted at the end.

 

Anyone have any experience with these? Good? Bad? Ugly? I'm not sure about the intake filter hanging out behind the rear wheel(s)...

http://www.ststurbo.com/

 

I saw one on a 4th gen camaro.. To me it looked pretty bad, a rock/speed bump would scare the hell out of me because of the oil line... If I were going with a turbo I'd stick to mounting it on the exhaust manifold where it belongs. That's just me though...

 

The "let's see your halfshafts" thread was hijacked with a discussion on this setup.
To me it doesn't look like a good idea

 

James,
What are you doing here in the middle of the day, aren't you supposed to be working???

Regards from Down Under

aussiejohn

 

I dunno ... but the first thing i read said:
STS turbo system can be installed in 4-6 hours with standard tools.
YEAH RIGHT !!!!!
It takes most of us 4-6 hours to change shocks in these beasts.

 

I'm not thinking that these guys understand how a turbo works and what makes a turbo run more efficiently. Everything they promote as being better makes the turbo run less efficiently. (i.e a cooler running turbo is a less efficient turbo.)

 

They only way they'll sell is if someone thinks it'll be simplier. I hate magazine write ups. I had to convince my dad that it was a stupid idea. He kept saying stuff from the magazine. "It only looses 3/4psi from being back there!" and "it doesn't need an intercooler because the air cools from traveling so far!" Ugh. This man should know better! He can do amazing things with a carbed SBC, but beyond that he is in over his head.

 

Alot of ls1 guys are runnign the sts systems with good results. They have been using small turbos to help keep turbo lag down, but obvioulsly sacrificing some hp up high. I think They were saying full boost was somewhere around 3k and a stock ls1 and small turbo sts was making 450 rwhp. Stock ls1s make 300-320 rwhp. So I guess they see about a 50% increase in hp. I dont like how low they sit, and they would look terrible on a vette if you removed your spare tire carrier. I dont see any reason to go with an sts on our cars unless you have a BB. There is plenty of room in the engine compartment for a turbo.
Oh, forgot to mention, there is alot of info on ls1's with sts systems. Seems they have become very popular lately.
AHAHAHA, forgot to link to the site, http://ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9

 

i talked to STS, and, as long as you buy their kit, you will be fine.

 

Dave, that is exactly the point I am trying to bring across, what they write on their pages is sales mumbo jumbo. Another scary thing is, if some kind of road debris destroys your in or return line (from scavenge) you'll pump your engine dry in no time, instant mess.

They made the kit to be easily installed but if a turbo would fit there and operate properly car manufacturers would do the same, much cheaper than trying to cram it in somewhere.

If stuff like this works you can also punch 2 holes in the windshield and mount the steering wheel directly on the steering box, it saves you the installation of a column..does it work properly? I don't think so LOL

Here's what I wrote about it on the cfi forum after someone asked about it...can you figure out I don't really like that kit? LOL

just did some reading and these people are CLUELESS about turbo systems or smoking crack rock.

Ease of installation. Our turbocharger systems can be installed in 4-6 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.

Wooptiedoo, and what about all those damn pipes???


No need for major modifications to your vehicle to fit the turbocharger system. Our systems are designed to bolt on using factory mounts.

As I see it this is a lot more work, including the low mounting pos. of the turbo necessitating a scavenge pump..simple huh?

Lower underhood temperatures and no need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.

Hmm, nothing heat shields couldn't fix? But then again, a SBC with headers is a real refrigerator under the hood ain't it.

More room under the hood than stock vehicles so that future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to any of the engine components.

Stock vehivle, add stupid ducting and have more under hood room??? Are they installing voids?

Cooler oil to the turbocharger and cooler oil being pumped back to your engine as well as increased oil capacity.

Well, we could have installed an oil cooler now couldn't we?

Approximately 500F lower turbocharger temperatures which eliminates the need for a turbo-timer to allow engine to run after car is shut off to cool down turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage that occur when engine is shut off while turbo is still extremely hot.

Nice, the turbo won't work well if it doesn't get hot!

Denser exhaust gasses to drive the turbocharger turbine wheel more efficiently.

Where did they get this info? BS excuse for the fact that they don't have the heat in the turbine, less (much) potential energy for the turbine wheel, energy transfer to turbine wheel from expanding gas is much less. Denser gas > cold > won't expand a whole lot now will it.

Good intercooler efficiency without the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.

Hahaha, nice intercooler, duct a whole lot of tubing an be done. They will have a terrible pressure drop because of the large interior volume, as intake temps drop the pressure does too.

Turbocharger is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air which allows for better cooling of turbocharger components.

turbos are designed to operate at very high temperatures, the thing keeping them from grenading is the oil and in some cases water cooling

No need for expensive headers, mufflers, or exhaust systems.

So all those pipes are free??? I need to find their supplier.

Turbocharger is closer to the tail pipe outlet which provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.

This would be true if one had underhood turbos coupled to a restrictive full exhaust, but the turbo itself is the most restrictive and by mounting it all the way back it becomes even harder to turn the turbine wheel for the now low on potential energy exhaust gasses

Easily converts back to stock in less than 2 hours.

Can be done in 0 minutes by not installing this kit

Better weight transfer for increased traction with bulk of system mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.

Like this will make a lot of difference, relocating the battery has more influence than this.

Less noise in the passenger compartment.

since when do turbos make more noise? They muffle the exhaust, in some cases it's perfectly possible to run without mufflers.

Quieter wastegates, especially if vented to atmosphere.

Wastegates vent to the atmosphere? THAT'S a BLOW OFF VALVE dummies, wastegates reroute energy rich (well poor in their case) exhaust gas past the turbine, robbing the turbine from it's energy and therefore slowing it down.

Better engine cooling capacity than with conventional turbo system, especially those with front mounted intercoolers.

true to some degree

Built in intercooling from the heat dissipation through the charge air tubing that is mostly located out of the engine compartment and exposed to ambient air.

See above point, this has been addressed before.

No need to add turbo-timers or auxiliary oil system pre-lubrication devices.

this has been partly mentioned also.

 

back to school for you

 

??? tokkin' toe me ?

 

If I had lower compression in my engine and wasn't going to school right now, I would figure out a way to make this work on my vette. There's just something so cool about having a turbo on a V8 powered car!

As lostpatrolman stated " a stock ls1 and small turbo sts was making 450 rwhp. Stock ls1s make 300-320 rwhp. " That's real power and on a stock engine. What could this setup do if it had a purpose built motor setup for lots of boost?

There's compromises whenever you try to change something. many of us would love to have an all out race motor under our hoods, but many of us aren't willing to sacrifice reliability or run purely race gas to do it. I have a friend who tubbed his Chevelle because he wanted to get down the 1/4 mile as fast as he could, now he says it's the worse thing he did because of its street characteristics now.

I remember once when I asked about the universal aluminum radiators and was told there was no way I could make it work on a C3. Well guess what, where theres a will theres a way I say don't be afraid to try something if you really wnat it and have the means to try and achieve it. I don't know how the STS kit works so I can't comment on that, but I do know there are lots of benefits to be had with a turbo.

For me though, I will be running NA for while