89 Vert Resto/Build thread
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,344
Likes: 4,009
From: Texas
I never said the LSX wasn't a better engine there champ.
What I did say was you could build a TPI car to keep up with if not smoke a stock LSX, or even a bolt oned LSX for fairly cheap, and you can.
What I perhaps should have specified, if you want to get **** and functionally retarded about this, is that the LSX would be pretty much bolt on, or maybe a couple of steps beyond that if you're staying fairly tame with the TPI changes.
You on the other hand decided "oh yeah right suuurre" like I was on drugs.
I consider it mild. Hell you can score a 383 of fairly good quality these days fairly cheap, turning the ''hard work'' into an engine dump and swap and bring your manifolds over. And it's a far far easier job than converting your C4 to an LSX.
Didn't the LS7 have major Head issues once you start putting the ponies on? I seem to recall GM having to redesign something with the heads or valve train because it was rather fragile.
Alright let's say you get an LS3 car for 30 grand. Now what can you do to a C4 for 30 grand. The LSX car still loses the dollar per dollar ratio. Sink 30 grand into the 30 grand car? Well then the budget for the C4 just swelled up again didn't it. Unless you're buying the engine, wiring and ECM all by itself, it's cheaper to buy a C4 and mod it, than it is to even get into a C6, for the same amount of speed.
And once you go Boost, all bets are off anyway.
Now if you want to continue pretending that you can't possibly build a fast TPI car that'll more than get the job done, by all means. But let's at least move it to another thread.
The LSX family came about because GM needed a lighter, more powerful efficient engine. Said engine however is -not- cheap, and -alot- of it's innovations came in head design and camshaft more than anything for power generation. Said new engine also had to make much stricter EPA standards. No doubt the LSX is a better engine. But the TPI car is still capable of throwing it down against an LSX will it get the mpgs? No. Will it be reliable and streetable? Yes. Is it capable of being modded to be able to smoke a C6 even a modded one? yes. Is it capable of doing so for fairly low price? Why yes it is.
What I did say was you could build a TPI car to keep up with if not smoke a stock LSX, or even a bolt oned LSX for fairly cheap, and you can.
What I perhaps should have specified, if you want to get **** and functionally retarded about this, is that the LSX would be pretty much bolt on, or maybe a couple of steps beyond that if you're staying fairly tame with the TPI changes.
You on the other hand decided "oh yeah right suuurre" like I was on drugs.
I consider it mild. Hell you can score a 383 of fairly good quality these days fairly cheap, turning the ''hard work'' into an engine dump and swap and bring your manifolds over. And it's a far far easier job than converting your C4 to an LSX.
Didn't the LS7 have major Head issues once you start putting the ponies on? I seem to recall GM having to redesign something with the heads or valve train because it was rather fragile.
Alright let's say you get an LS3 car for 30 grand. Now what can you do to a C4 for 30 grand. The LSX car still loses the dollar per dollar ratio. Sink 30 grand into the 30 grand car? Well then the budget for the C4 just swelled up again didn't it. Unless you're buying the engine, wiring and ECM all by itself, it's cheaper to buy a C4 and mod it, than it is to even get into a C6, for the same amount of speed.
And once you go Boost, all bets are off anyway.
Now if you want to continue pretending that you can't possibly build a fast TPI car that'll more than get the job done, by all means. But let's at least move it to another thread.
The LSX family came about because GM needed a lighter, more powerful efficient engine. Said engine however is -not- cheap, and -alot- of it's innovations came in head design and camshaft more than anything for power generation. Said new engine also had to make much stricter EPA standards. No doubt the LSX is a better engine. But the TPI car is still capable of throwing it down against an LSX will it get the mpgs? No. Will it be reliable and streetable? Yes. Is it capable of being modded to be able to smoke a C6 even a modded one? yes. Is it capable of doing so for fairly low price? Why yes it is.
Now you imply that I've said the TPI can't be made fast. Go re-read my posts. Wait...let me help you "Can TPIs be made fast? Sure, never said they couldn't.".
The best is that "lightly modified" is boring and stroking an engine because it can be bought in completed form and ready to install. By that definition someone can send a check to any tuner and say "build me "x" huge by large engine and I'll drop it in" and you would consider it lightly modified. Give me a break.
To top it off you want to jump into the realm of insults..."****", "champ", "functionally retarded". Really? Grow up.
Last edited by 96GS#007; Jan 31, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
Instructor
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 194
Likes: 1
From: Lawndale CA
Everyone likes a good fixer/build thread!
Plan on updating this for as long as I'm working on the car (which should hopefully be for years)
The event that started this was the fact that the engine pours oil down the rear side of the I/M.. also because I just bought it and I go through all the fluids as typical new-car owner fare.
Let me first just say... even the 30V Audi V6 in the A6 was not such a PITA to break down the I/M On.
How GM managed to shove so many bolts into such a small space is beyond me.
That said, it's always satisfying to get it done, and I've found 1-2 reasons why I'm glad I did so far. Someone had ghetto'd a vac line with heater hose and someone installed a 160T-stat on an otherwise stock car (to my knowledge) I know that a lower t-stat is typically a good mod for these engines, but iirc it does nothing without some timing advance?
Also.. I'm a cleaner, it's a disease unfortunately, and If I were to post all the before/afters of the parts I'll be taking a nail brush to, we'd be here all night, if you pay close attention though, you'll notice that everything, even down to the bolts (via soaking in some seafoam) will be cleaned once removed.
Right now It's break time, so I'm posting progress up to right now.
Anyway.. Pictures!
Plan on updating this for as long as I'm working on the car (which should hopefully be for years)
The event that started this was the fact that the engine pours oil down the rear side of the I/M.. also because I just bought it and I go through all the fluids as typical new-car owner fare.
Let me first just say... even the 30V Audi V6 in the A6 was not such a PITA to break down the I/M On.
How GM managed to shove so many bolts into such a small space is beyond me.
That said, it's always satisfying to get it done, and I've found 1-2 reasons why I'm glad I did so far. Someone had ghetto'd a vac line with heater hose and someone installed a 160T-stat on an otherwise stock car (to my knowledge) I know that a lower t-stat is typically a good mod for these engines, but iirc it does nothing without some timing advance?
Also.. I'm a cleaner, it's a disease unfortunately, and If I were to post all the before/afters of the parts I'll be taking a nail brush to, we'd be here all night, if you pay close attention though, you'll notice that everything, even down to the bolts (via soaking in some seafoam) will be cleaned once removed.
Right now It's break time, so I'm posting progress up to right now.
Anyway.. Pictures!
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 2
You made a claim and got called on it. Your facts do not support your claim and you got called on it again. Then you changed the basis of the discussion to cost which is also a non-starter.
Now you imply that I've said the TPI can't be made fast. Go re-read my posts. Wait...let me help you "Can TPIs be made fast? Sure, never said they couldn't.".
The best is that "lightly modified" is boring and stroking an engine because it can be bought in completed form and ready to install. By that definition someone can send a check to any tuner and say "build me "x" huge by large engine and I'll drop it in" and you would consider it lightly modified. Give me a break.
To top it off you want to jump into the realm of insults..."****", "champ", "functionally retarded". Really? Grow up.
Now you imply that I've said the TPI can't be made fast. Go re-read my posts. Wait...let me help you "Can TPIs be made fast? Sure, never said they couldn't.".
The best is that "lightly modified" is boring and stroking an engine because it can be bought in completed form and ready to install. By that definition someone can send a check to any tuner and say "build me "x" huge by large engine and I'll drop it in" and you would consider it lightly modified. Give me a break.
To top it off you want to jump into the realm of insults..."****", "champ", "functionally retarded". Really? Grow up.
that first? And you want to say you meant it as anything but an insult?Get over yourself.
Oh and for the record you don't even have to go 383 to make a screamer 350 either that'll get the job done against a stock LSX. The 383 is just to get the super grade of neck snapping torque.
We're done here. And you've just become the first person to make my ignore list. Congratulations and enjoy your stay.
Last edited by Aaron Keating; Jan 31, 2013 at 11:35 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,344
Likes: 4,009
From: Texas
That's right....can't support your original premise, keep changing the premise and then end with name calling.
Joined Nov 2012. You'll make a lot of friends quick.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 0
From: OREGON
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
indeed.. if it's truly over we'll move along. If not, the next action would be asking the moderators to delete the posts. I'll ask that we please keep the mood light gentlemen and to take the arguments elsewhere.
In the spirit of getting back on track, here's what I bought today!
While the car runs much better, I still feel like there's a slight miss going on,
I just came out of some minor surgery today, otherwise I'd be under her doing the trans fluid/ filter right now
That'll take place tomorrow instead, and I'll get her a good detail over the weekend and try to do the rear diff fluid too.
In the spirit of getting back on track, here's what I bought today!
While the car runs much better, I still feel like there's a slight miss going on,
I just came out of some minor surgery today, otherwise I'd be under her doing the trans fluid/ filter right now
That'll take place tomorrow instead, and I'll get her a good detail over the weekend and try to do the rear diff fluid too.
Last edited by ThatVguy; Jan 31, 2013 at 05:46 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
edit;
maybe I'm over complicating things, but I've been looking @ the Z51 rack to pickup when I fix the P/S pressure hose, however, I went out to the car today and with the wheel turned locked to right it takes 1 & 3/4 turns to lock it to the left.
'turns' meaning the number of times the wheel reaches the locked position it stood at when locked on the right.
maybe I've over thinking this, but is this the correct way to measure? The car doesn't have the Z51 package according to the RPO codes, so I would just be a bit surprised to know some P/O installed it already.
Last edited by ThatVguy; Jan 31, 2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
got the trans fluid changed today, made a huge difference, car is much more eager to shift and get into high gear now, it's amazing but the car just feels so much more alive now.
actually this started on friday, but late in the day I ran out of fluid and had to go hunting (literally) for more today.
Totally happy with 4L60E choice now. Still want to do a MTX swap in the late future, but this is juuuuust fine for now.
ALso did some cleaning on the cross member and cleaned up the trans pan bolts. Was going to do the P/S fluid but I found out it's some kind of special oil (I thought it was regular ATF)
In any event, apparently I'm not the only person to realize Wallyworld has nearly a $3/quart advantage on Dexron VI, gentlemen you're looking at the remaining stock of 5 local walmarts right here in my garage;
Bolts nice and clean
probably why the shifts were so crappy, looks like the OE fluid
nothing to see here..
Pan had it's share of debris
crossmember got a powerwash
and.... I mostly did this for my German friend but... what the hell D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PniPz...ature=youtu.be
actually this started on friday, but late in the day I ran out of fluid and had to go hunting (literally) for more today.
Totally happy with 4L60E choice now. Still want to do a MTX swap in the late future, but this is juuuuust fine for now.
ALso did some cleaning on the cross member and cleaned up the trans pan bolts. Was going to do the P/S fluid but I found out it's some kind of special oil (I thought it was regular ATF)
In any event, apparently I'm not the only person to realize Wallyworld has nearly a $3/quart advantage on Dexron VI, gentlemen you're looking at the remaining stock of 5 local walmarts right here in my garage;
Bolts nice and clean
probably why the shifts were so crappy, looks like the OE fluid
nothing to see here..
Pan had it's share of debris
crossmember got a powerwash
and.... I mostly did this for my German friend but... what the hell D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PniPz...ature=youtu.be
Last edited by ThatVguy; Feb 2, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
Racer
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 296
Likes: 0
From: Derby (Wichita area) KS
I'd be the first to agree that manuals are more fun to drive and I'd love to have a six speed in my car for that reason...that said, the auto trans seems to be a nice match with the torquey but narrow powerband of the L98 and I don't think these cars suffer much, if any, performance-wise with the automatic.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
update;
Z51 Shocks and ball joints came in.
After taking off the first shock, they're clearly blown. There's dirt and fluid leaking down the entire shock body (they look orginal to me as they have the Delco branding) so I'm confident this is going to significantly improve the ride.
Had to stop just before popping the first upper off, was busy running around all day today and then mounting/balancing new tires on the beater.
I did purchase a few more items including a P/S cooler;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ea...l/media/images
and I'll also be buying some inner TRE's and boots (not going to change the rack since it's already a 1 & 3/4 turn ratio someone put on)
and as soon as I figure out how much fluid to pickup, some of that too..
anyway.. parts D=
The 'hicup' was that one of the lower ball joints looked like it was some off-brand that was boxed in a moog box?
I told RA that they need to send me another one.. I'm hoping that this is the case and they're not just rebranding what look like cheap Chinese knockoffs. Everything about the non-branded part screams cheap. Even the boots aern't molded properly (there's a lot of excess around the bore for the stud.)
Z51 Shocks and ball joints came in.
After taking off the first shock, they're clearly blown. There's dirt and fluid leaking down the entire shock body (they look orginal to me as they have the Delco branding) so I'm confident this is going to significantly improve the ride.
Had to stop just before popping the first upper off, was busy running around all day today and then mounting/balancing new tires on the beater.
I did purchase a few more items including a P/S cooler;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ea...l/media/images
and I'll also be buying some inner TRE's and boots (not going to change the rack since it's already a 1 & 3/4 turn ratio someone put on)
and as soon as I figure out how much fluid to pickup, some of that too..
anyway.. parts D=
The 'hicup' was that one of the lower ball joints looked like it was some off-brand that was boxed in a moog box?
I told RA that they need to send me another one.. I'm hoping that this is the case and they're not just rebranding what look like cheap Chinese knockoffs. Everything about the non-branded part screams cheap. Even the boots aern't molded properly (there's a lot of excess around the bore for the stud.)
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
So the ball joints were a pretty big PITA,
The uppers more so than the lowers naturally.
Eventually I just decided to take off the arms and use my press to do it, so I'll be returning the $60 ball joint separator I bought from harbor freight.
I'm happy with the choice of the Z51's, it's a much better ride, and It's not nearly as harsh as it's talked up to be (so far)
Oh, and the rears only took me 45minuites to pop both off and put em on again. so that made up for the all-day's work on the front.
anyway, onto the photos.
I didn't cleanup everything, I still have another ball joint to do and the steering components, when I do the brakes and other such I may revisit the total cleaning stuff, but I wanted to drive it tomorrow.
Old and busted;
new hotness
(rear) old and busted;
new hotness
The uppers more so than the lowers naturally.
Eventually I just decided to take off the arms and use my press to do it, so I'll be returning the $60 ball joint separator I bought from harbor freight.
I'm happy with the choice of the Z51's, it's a much better ride, and It's not nearly as harsh as it's talked up to be (so far)
Oh, and the rears only took me 45minuites to pop both off and put em on again. so that made up for the all-day's work on the front.
anyway, onto the photos.
I didn't cleanup everything, I still have another ball joint to do and the steering components, when I do the brakes and other such I may revisit the total cleaning stuff, but I wanted to drive it tomorrow.
Old and busted;
new hotness
(rear) old and busted;
new hotness
Last edited by ThatVguy; Feb 10, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,439
Likes: 23
From: mesa az
Be careful! It's easy to get carried away. I started pretty much where you are now. I'm the original owner of my '86 convertible. Decided it was time for some engine bay cleanup. Here is where I ended up:
I'm starting to get things back together after painting the firewall and frame rails and polishing the suspension/adding Del-A-Lum bushings.
I also ended up putting the original engine on a stand and bagged it up for future generations and built a 383 to drop in its place.
So as I said, be careful. You could easily end up on a runaway train.
I'm starting to get things back together after painting the firewall and frame rails and polishing the suspension/adding Del-A-Lum bushings.
I also ended up putting the original engine on a stand and bagged it up for future generations and built a 383 to drop in its place.
So as I said, be careful. You could easily end up on a runaway train.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 191
Likes: 11
From: Suffolk VA
havent updated in a while, last weekend I pickedup a pair of used A4's for a great price.
the weekend before that I decided to rebuild the steering, and unfortunately the camera crapped out and I only managed an in-between picture of the rack after a significant cleaning (it was basically a giant lob of grease and mush before this)
but essentially, the inner/outer TRE's were changed, so were the boots, the leaking line, the fluid was just replaced with redline fluid, and the other ball-joints on the driver side. Then had an alignment of course, and she drive's much more straight now.
Also pickedup a power steering cooler, and my J55 Brakes came in today.
Plan on putting the brakes on this weekend, and redying the seats for install next week, they acutally look a lot better than in these pictures. the cloth is nice a soft, and there are no tears, it just needs to be freshened up.
the weekend before that I decided to rebuild the steering, and unfortunately the camera crapped out and I only managed an in-between picture of the rack after a significant cleaning (it was basically a giant lob of grease and mush before this)
but essentially, the inner/outer TRE's were changed, so were the boots, the leaking line, the fluid was just replaced with redline fluid, and the other ball-joints on the driver side. Then had an alignment of course, and she drive's much more straight now.
Also pickedup a power steering cooler, and my J55 Brakes came in today.
Plan on putting the brakes on this weekend, and redying the seats for install next week, they acutally look a lot better than in these pictures. the cloth is nice a soft, and there are no tears, it just needs to be freshened up.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,207
Likes: 311
From: Lino Lakes MN
reminds me of an earlier time with my wife's '89, here's the after
looking at these pictures, looks like I need to loose about 1" overall height and spend some time on the exhaust manifolds this spring.
looking at these pictures, looks like I need to loose about 1" overall height and spend some time on the exhaust manifolds this spring.
Last edited by yaknow; Feb 28, 2013 at 11:26 PM.