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I think we may well have been our own worst enemy for years. Corvette owners tend to take meticulous care of their cars. That in turn keeps more on the road. Camaro, Mustang, etc tend to end up in the hands of teenagers and get beat to death. The result is fewer available and more people looking per car.
As for the muscle car, sports car debate, I put the Corvette in the sports car group, heck might even consider it a GT in the true sense of the term. Not a hopped up factory car with badges, but rather a car meant for a leisurely drive up a coast/mountain road.
One other factor I see is the perception that Corvettes are expensive to maintain. That perception alone runs away some buyers. Are they really that expensive I'm not so sure. Someone mentioned in another thread a $1200 bill for an opti/water pump replacement. That wouldn't cover the parts on a Mercedes E series shock replacement with the air ride system.
I think we may well have been our own worst enemy for years. Corvette owners tend to take meticulous care of their cars. That in turn keeps more on the road. Camaro, Mustang, etc tend to end up in the hands of teenagers and get beat to death. The result is fewer available and more people looking per car.
As for the muscle car, sports car debate, I put the Corvette in the sports car group, heck might even consider it a GT in the true sense of the term. Not a hopped up factory car with badges, but rather a car meant for a leisurely drive up a coast/mountain road.
One other factor I see is the perception that Corvettes are expensive to maintain. That perception alone runs away some buyers. Are they really that expensive I'm not so sure. Someone mentioned in another thread a $1200 bill for an opti/water pump replacement. That wouldn't cover the parts on a Mercedes E series shock replacement with the air ride system.
The Mercedes comparison is somewhat applicable to this conversation, though. The same oversupply, undervalue is happening in the W126 S Class and W124 E class used market. And to some extent with the later models (W140 S class, W210 E class).
November of last year, I picked up a fully optioned out 1988 560SEL (sun roof, heated seats, passenger air bag, reclining and heated rear seats, even the factory cup holders). The thing had two owners in it's life, was meticulously maintained with records, a few mods including Euro lighting, and garage kept for most of it's life. No cracks in the dash, no major paint issues, nearly new (<10K miles) Michelins, AC still worked, still R12 and recently serviced. I gave <$5K for that car (NADA "retail" ranges around $8K), and the original window sticker was with the records, $78K and change.
Parts for that aren't horrible, although it's in a transition back to outrageous. It seems like there's still demand, but the original parts stocks are running out, and the new strategy is "make more, and add a zero to the price."
I bought it for my wife, mostly for the heated seats.
The Mercedes comparison is somewhat applicable to this conversation, though. The same oversupply, undervalue is happening in the W126 S Class and W124 E class used market. And to some extent with the later models (W140 S class, W210 E class).
November of last year, I picked up a fully optioned out 1988 560SEL (sun roof, heated seats, passenger air bag, reclining and heated rear seats, even the factory cup holders). The thing had two owners in it's life, was meticulously maintained with records, a few mods including Euro lighting, and garage kept for most of it's life. No cracks in the dash, no major paint issues, nearly new (<10K miles) Michelins, AC still worked, still R12 and recently serviced. I gave <$5K for that car (NADA "retail" ranges around $8K), and the original window sticker was with the records, $78K and change.
Parts for that aren't horrible, although it's in a transition back to outrageous. It seems like there's still demand, but the original parts stocks are running out, and the new strategy is "make more, and add a zero to the price."
I bought it for my wife, mostly for the heated seats.
Wow, you stole that car. Great deal, post up some pics if you can.
Wow, you stole that car. Great deal, post up some pics if you can.
I might have done OK. The jury is still out a bit. It needed some work. Rear suspension was sagging (it has the hydraulic Self Leveling Suspension). If it doesn't need the rams replace, I'll be OK. It also will need exhaust soon (all the stock mufflers and resonators are gone, and it has some cheap aftermarket parts that have been cobbled together, and it's rusting and one muffler is already leaking a bit). I've already replaced one rear wheel bearing, and the flex discs on the drive shaft are old and could stand to be replaced "real soon now."
I've already put a new control valve and new linkage rods on the SLS, and it seems to have brought it up enough, and most of the time it seems OK. The rear springs look original, and I've got replacements for those as well. Those should help. We've had two other W126's in the past (a coupe and a short wheel base diesel sedan before that), and with our gravel driveway and poorly maintained gravel county road, I've generally put thicker spring pads in them to jack them up a bit beyond factory specs. I really don't need a saggy suspension here.
I'll probably be in for under $7K plus my own labor by the time it's "finished."
Oh, and even though it had Euro lights, the reflectors looked like the dull side of aluminum foil. I had a set of the early W126 lamp assemblies (designed for the sealed beams). I swapped those in and filled the buckets with properly selected Hella "universal fit" Euro headlights (the ones that fit in the sealed beam buckets). Much better lighting that way. I haven't decided whether to find a place to restore/re-plate the reflectors in the composite Euro lights, or to just make a few bucks and let them be someone else's problem.
PS. Sorry for derailing your discussion. I was mainly offering this as another example of a higher end car from the 1980's-early 1990's car that's usually well maintained, and has a very high supply of good condition examples as a result, driving down the used market price. It's also one with a perceived "premium" on parts prices (which, at least until the past few years, was mostly imaginary).
Last edited by C6_Racer_X; 01-18-2018 at 08:38 PM.
I might have done OK. The jury is still out a bit. It needed some work. Rear suspension was sagging (it has the hydraulic Self Leveling Suspension). If it doesn't need the rams replace, I'll be OK. It also will need exhaust soon (all the stock mufflers and resonators are gone, and it has some cheap aftermarket parts that have been cobbled together, and it's rusting and one muffler is already leaking a bit). I've already replaced one rear wheel bearing, and the flex discs on the drive shaft are old and could stand to be replaced "real soon now."
I've already put a new control valve and new linkage rods on the SLS, and it seems to have brought it up enough, and most of the time it seems OK. The rear springs look original, and I've got replacements for those as well. Those should help. We've had two other W126's in the past (a coupe and a short wheel base diesel sedan before that), and with our gravel driveway and poorly maintained gravel county road, I've generally put thicker spring pads in them to jack them up a bit beyond factory specs. I really don't need a saggy suspension here.
I'll probably be in for under $7K plus my own labor by the time it's "finished."
Oh, and even though it had Euro lights, the reflectors looked like the dull side of aluminum foil. I had a set of the early W126 lamp assemblies (designed for the sealed beams). I swapped those in and filled the buckets with properly selected Hella "universal fit" Euro headlights (the ones that fit in the sealed beam buckets). Much better lighting that way. I haven't decided whether to find a place to restore/re-plate the reflectors in the composite Euro lights, or to just make a few bucks and let them be someone else's problem.
PS. Sorry for derailing your discussion. I was mainly offering this as another example of a higher end car from the 1980's-early 1990's car that's usually well maintained, and has a very high supply of good condition examples as a result, driving down the used market price. It's also one with a perceived "premium" on parts prices (which, at least until the past few years, was mostly imaginary).
I am not a foreign car guy at all, but I have always had a soft spot for those MBs. You can just feel the quality oozing out of them, even with higher mileage they still feel tight as new. One can almost picture the white haired German with an apron assembling each and every part of the car.
The market for them does seem to follow (on a cheaper scale) that of the C4, there are clean, low mile examples that need nothing for top dollar to butchered "parts car" rollers. Like the C4 you need to be able to turn your own wrenches or you will go broke in a hurry.
I am not a foreign car guy at all, but I have always had a soft spot for those MBs. You can just feel the quality oozing out of them, even with higher mileage they still feel tight as new. One can almost picture the white haired German with an apron assembling each and every part of the car.
The market for them does seem to follow (on a cheaper scale) that of the C4, there are clean, low mile examples that need nothing for top dollar to butchered "parts car" rollers. Like the C4 you need to be able to turn your own wrenches or you will go broke in a hurry.
Parts can sure add up in a hurry with German cars.
Parts can sure add up in a hurry with German cars.
True, but if youre handy, its not that big of a deal... Some of the best trouble free cars Ive had have been BMW's..... and the C-Class I just traded in was trouble free for 2 years.... gas and oil... thats it!
If I could afford a climate controlled warehouse I would buy a crap load of c4's and store them away.. essentially, Id horde them.
It would be a fun investment. In 10 yrs I would double my money and in 15 triple and beyond that the profits would be exponential as c4's left the planet.
At least I was able to buy one specimen and enjoy it.
The c4 is the best kept fun factorm bang for the buck automotive secret.
Sometimes I just lay next to my c4 and enjoy her underside... oh my.
FWIW--We have both an 88 IROC and a 95 Corvette coupe, which we regularly take to shows in our area. We frequently see several other C4s at the shows we attend; maybe one other 3rd Gen F-body, if that. Just sayin'...
I have encountered a phenomenon surrounding the C4 in particular. I dunno what to call it but "The REAL Hot Rodder" syndrome. I never noticed it till I got a Vette myself.
There is apparently a very widely held perception that the C4 is a sports car, not a muscle car. It isn't considered to be one, and perhaps this is because people grew up with magazines like "Hot Rod" featuring Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, etc.. and very few Corvettes.
I think it is a fantastic performance car platform. But I have spoken to enough purists to become convinced that they don't see it that way. In their minds a muscle car has a straight rear axle and it generally runs a carburetor. (If not, they'll put one on it.)
No lockup torque converters. No tricky FI systems. No no fancy-dancy climate control systems. Weird fiberglass leaf springs and complicated rear suspensions. Etc.
And they are prejudiced against the C4 as a result.
It is kind of odd because a good running LT1 would run rings around a lot of their "muscle cars" from the era. But I have now heard it from enough people to believe it is true.
IMVHO.
I'm reading this and thinking back to the late 60's when I was in high school. I agreee. Back at that time the Vette was considered a sports car but not a muscle car. Corvettes were compared to and raced against Jags, Healeys and other 2-seater cars on road courses. Vettes didn't race Mustangs and Camaros and road runners. 396 Chevelle, 409 Impalla, Olds 442, GTO, those were considered muscle cars...... at least back in the olden days when I was leaning to drive.
It also seems like all the muscle cars had a back seat that you could a bunch of people into...... 2-seaters were sports cars.
I'm reading this and thinking back to the late 60's when I was in high school. I agreee. Back at that time the Vette was considered a sports car but not a muscle car. Corvettes were compared to and raced against Jags, Healeys and other 2-seater cars on road courses. Vettes didn't race Mustangs and Camaros and road runners. 396 Chevelle, 409 Impalla, Olds 442, GTO, those were considered muscle cars...... at least back in the olden days when I was leaning to drive.
It also seems like all the muscle cars had a back seat that you could a bunch of people into...... 2-seaters were sports cars.
I just seen something on this. Camaro for pony cars, Corvette was always a different league.
Ford compete with corvette by Shelby and other after markets, otherwise no comparison stock for stock, Well lately Ford is stepping their game up a little.
A 1996 vette will hang with or whoop a 2006 mustang in many scenarios and cases.
Last edited by pologreen1; 01-24-2018 at 01:33 PM.
shelby had to do something, the original mustang was marketed as a secretrays car and drove like it too. Nice body but downright scary to drive in the rain
So ive got an 87 ss monte carlo. Its in good shape, ive owned it for 7 years. Only 7000 miles in that time. Im one of the ones that grew up in the 80's and have driven/owned montes since ive had my license. Ive got vette fever bad....always wanted one, c3"s are my favorite but have come to realize (after looking at a few c3's i can get into) that they may be alittle more cost involved with owning one of them. So ive looked at several c4's and have come across a 96 that has been "pretty much" taken care of. It does have a primered/hotrod black paint job, but its a start.....owe what to do.....? I know i may regret it....."trading".....
...
My regret is I should have found a better C4 that wouldn’t have gave me as much trouble I mine did. I was sort of attached to my Monte as it was my first car and I built it as I wanted it. If I had a place to keep it I most likely would have kept it But that was over 10 years ago. And I sold to some one two states away so I never saw it again
Yeah i feel ya pain.....im the same way, moneys tight. And i dont really wanna wait till my truck is paid for to get a vette. The monte is nice. Its a driver, but it has its issues. And i feel if im gonna put money into something it might as well be something else......
and i feel if i make a mistake and miss a monte, i should be able to trade for another......
01-18-2018, 10:22 AM
I just seen something on this. Camaro for pony cars, Corvette was always a different league. 
