Flat rate labor times ?
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 34,873
Likes: 487
From: Lacey WA RVN 68-69
NCM Sinkhole Donor
Hourly labor rates can vary widely from area to area. Dealerships typically will charge much more for labor time compared to independent shops. Labor rates are typically standard regardless of the make and model or the work being done, What changes the customer cost of the labor is the number of hours required to do the work. I don't know if AllData has some type of free access, but they would have information concerning the number of hours to perform repair procedures.
Some shops may even have repair procedures developed that could reduce the number of labor hours and could possibly bill for fewer hours or less than their regular per-hour charge. Just depends on the shop.
Some shops may even have repair procedures developed that could reduce the number of labor hours and could possibly bill for fewer hours or less than their regular per-hour charge. Just depends on the shop.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,192
Likes: 750
From: near the thumb in the mitten
Factory originally sets labor times some real and some "not in your wildest dreams". Factory time is supposed to be the length of time, the average tech with correct tools and training , to make a repair a second time. First time is expected to be longer. Chilton, Mitchell, Alldata etc all re-factor factory time by 30-35%. So 1.0 warranty time is 1.3 cash time. Some shops have there own matrix to calculate labor time. It is not uncommon for repair shops to give labor totals only; not actual labor rates and hours. Dealers are not required to use warranty time on non oem warranty repairs. The C4 is old enough that Chilton ,the most popular of c4 era, labor time guides can be found in used book channels. Labor guides will also list parts numbers which I wouldn't count on being accurate today. Labor rates and parts retail prices can vary from shop to shop. The part's msrp is not required to match sale price. Shop policies determine sale price. If you're are searching for " Chilton Labor Time Guide" book be sure you aren't getting the Import book or "Crash" or Collision repair book. Last comment about labor times is because the newest C4 is 23 years old and the oldest are 35. The little surprises of stripped, seized,& broken add ons are not unusual and maybe factored in on a estimate or you may want put that out there if making an estimate.
Last edited by Kevova; Dec 17, 2018 at 03:29 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Hartford WI
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,274
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From: Tacoma WA
2024 C4 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
We are talking about labor rates for a car that most Chevrolet dealership mechanics have never worked on in their career. I find mechanics at dealerships where Corvette shows are being held looking over the C4s carefully so they can learn about these "old" models. So we are talking learning time for the mechanic and I doubt the dealership would even quote a "flat rate" for his mechanic's "experimental time". Specialty shops that work on Corvettes most of their time get between $95 to $125 per hour and will take a lot less time than a mechanic who does not know anything about C4s, and will most likely get it right the first time.
If I am not doing the work myself, you can bet I am willing to pay the going rate for a first class Corvette specialty shop's time. At least I know it will be done correctly.
If I am not doing the work myself, you can bet I am willing to pay the going rate for a first class Corvette specialty shop's time. At least I know it will be done correctly.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 491
Likes: 40
From: Mardi Gras City
St. Jude Donor '19
thanks all for the response. I knew alldata only sold the info, hence the "free" in my question. just telling the shops to fix it has not been working for me, sometimes even paying twice as much for the same job. more info sure can't hurt.....
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,192
Likes: 750
From: near the thumb in the mitten
Free is always tough. Ebay has guides as low as 5.00 plus shipping so IDK. You need to make a friend who works at shop who is willing to do your leg work for free. Some public libraries have a variety on Chilton / Motor books
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,692
Likes: 349
From: Sacramento California
I'm not so sure labor rates are dependent on the make/model being repaired. The cost for a "job" will change of course, depending on the model. You know, transmission service, brake jobs (per axle), oil changes, tune ups, etc. But flat rates for labor are pretty well fixed. My buddy's garage charges $104 per hour, Sacramento CA.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,274
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From: Tacoma WA
2024 C4 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Labor rates are always charged per hour and vary by the dealer/shop. Flat rates are cherged by the job and depend on the work required, model, etc. A friend is an excellent Ford Diesel mechanic working at a Ford dealership. He is paid “x$” for the job no matter if it takes him 2 hours or 6 hours for a job rated at 4 hours. If he beats the “flat rate” he makes more money. Any “comebacks” he is required to fix on “ his” time. NO pay! Work fast and well in a flat rate shop and you can make a very good living but you better be a very good mechanic.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 17,982
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From: Lansing MI
Labor rates are always charged per hour and vary by the dealer/shop. Flat rates are cherged by the job and depend on the work required, model, etc. A friend is an excellent Ford Diesel mechanic working at a Ford dealership. He is paid “x$” for the job no matter if it takes him 2 hours or 6 hours for a job rated at 4 hours. If he beats the “flat rate” he makes more money. Any “comebacks” he is required to fix on “ his” time. NO pay! Work fast and well in a flat rate shop and you can make a very good living but you better be a very good mechanic.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Lansing MI
There. Fixed it.
I resemble that remark, because I was damn good and made a ton of money under flat rate. I worked quickly, efficiently, and seldom made mistakes that cost me time to complete the task. I knew what I was doing. Out of 35 mechanics I was always in the top 3 producers at month's end. I had virtually zero comebacks, and could fix anything including the cars the other *** hats couldn't fix. If the Svc Manager, or the dealership General Manager had a "special child" problem, they came to me to get the customer's issue resolved. Sometimes it "cost me" dearly in lost time because I couldn't do more lucrative work, but they were the boss. I got done what they asked me to do.
What I saw happening 40+ years ago, I think still holds true today. Young kids come out of high school or trade schools and get apprenticeship positions at Dealerships. (I feel Dealerships are the entry point for mechanics). They learn the trade, and eventually either are pretty good at it, or still suck. If they're any good, they move on to work for an Independent, or open a shop of their own. Or just move on into an associated line of work like I did. In other words Dealership mechanics are green, and are being trained on-the-job on YOUR car. If the tech is any good, he leaves the Dealership environment mostly because dealers can't compete pay-wise with Indies or self employed.
Flat Rate was very very good to me, and the dealership and our customers that I worked for. It provided consistency in pricing among jobs, tech pay, and even dealership to dealership service department charges.
I think there are still good mechanics in the trade today, but they aren't in Dealerships. They're Independents. And they have to specialize in particular makes or models, or even years. There are just too many different cars and systems out there now to be any good as an "everyologist". I was pretty good with 911's and 914's of the early 70's. But I'm not qualified to even open the lid on a GT3 today. I know an Indie Porsche guy near me who works on any year Porsche as long as it has a flat-6 engine mounted behind the rear wheels. He charges as much or more than dealerships do, but his work is impeccable. It also takes 12 months to get your car in to see him. Good work is in demand.
There's still good guys out there. But they're dying and retiring. End of an era.
I resemble that remark, because I was damn good and made a ton of money under flat rate. I worked quickly, efficiently, and seldom made mistakes that cost me time to complete the task. I knew what I was doing. Out of 35 mechanics I was always in the top 3 producers at month's end. I had virtually zero comebacks, and could fix anything including the cars the other *** hats couldn't fix. If the Svc Manager, or the dealership General Manager had a "special child" problem, they came to me to get the customer's issue resolved. Sometimes it "cost me" dearly in lost time because I couldn't do more lucrative work, but they were the boss. I got done what they asked me to do.
What I saw happening 40+ years ago, I think still holds true today. Young kids come out of high school or trade schools and get apprenticeship positions at Dealerships. (I feel Dealerships are the entry point for mechanics). They learn the trade, and eventually either are pretty good at it, or still suck. If they're any good, they move on to work for an Independent, or open a shop of their own. Or just move on into an associated line of work like I did. In other words Dealership mechanics are green, and are being trained on-the-job on YOUR car. If the tech is any good, he leaves the Dealership environment mostly because dealers can't compete pay-wise with Indies or self employed.
Flat Rate was very very good to me, and the dealership and our customers that I worked for. It provided consistency in pricing among jobs, tech pay, and even dealership to dealership service department charges.
I think there are still good mechanics in the trade today, but they aren't in Dealerships. They're Independents. And they have to specialize in particular makes or models, or even years. There are just too many different cars and systems out there now to be any good as an "everyologist". I was pretty good with 911's and 914's of the early 70's. But I'm not qualified to even open the lid on a GT3 today. I know an Indie Porsche guy near me who works on any year Porsche as long as it has a flat-6 engine mounted behind the rear wheels. He charges as much or more than dealerships do, but his work is impeccable. It also takes 12 months to get your car in to see him. Good work is in demand.
There's still good guys out there. But they're dying and retiring. End of an era.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,497
Likes: 3,298
From: Hartford WI
If they're any good, they move on to work for an Independent, or open a shop of their own. Or just move on into an associated line of work like I did. In other words Dealership mechanics are green, and are being trained on-the-job on YOUR car. If the tech is any good, he leaves the Dealership environment mostly because dealers can't compete pay-wise with Indies or self employed.
Flat Rate was very very good to me, and the dealership and our customers that I worked for. It provided consistency in pricing among jobs, tech pay, and even dealership to dealership service department charges.
I think there are still good mechanics in the trade today, but they aren't in Dealerships. They're Independents. And they have to specialize in particular makes or models, or even years.
There's still good guys out there. But they're dying and retiring. End of an era.
Flat Rate was very very good to me, and the dealership and our customers that I worked for. It provided consistency in pricing among jobs, tech pay, and even dealership to dealership service department charges.
I think there are still good mechanics in the trade today, but they aren't in Dealerships. They're Independents. And they have to specialize in particular makes or models, or even years.
There's still good guys out there. But they're dying and retiring. End of an era.
Flat rate isn't perfect but it worked for you because you said you were good. It does give consistency and reward you if you are good. You wouldn't want me to charge you by the hour with an unknown bunch of time for a job.
I would dispute that. I have had a couple of good dealership people and also a bunch of indy idiots. Bottom line is not all dealerships are bad and not all indy shops are good. Mostly they are people and aren't that good. A few stand out regardless.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,348
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From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
I use both an independent auto repair shop or a dealership, depending on which vehicle needs work. the independent is two old guys who know their stuff and don't overcharge. They tell me they can't get good help (semi-knowledgeable, reliable, honest) because the dealerships have a compensation package they can't match (401, medical ins., retirement, paid holidays, etc.). The dealership I use is also honest, but charges full retail on everything.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,497
Likes: 3,298
From: Hartford WI
Great point.
I use both an independent auto repair shop or a dealership, depending on which vehicle needs work. the independent is two old guys who know their stuff and don't overcharge. They tell me they can't get good help (semi-knowledgeable, reliable, honest) because the dealerships have a compensation package they can't match (401, medical ins., retirement, paid holidays, etc.). The dealership I use is also honest, but charges full retail on everything.
I use both an independent auto repair shop or a dealership, depending on which vehicle needs work. the independent is two old guys who know their stuff and don't overcharge. They tell me they can't get good help (semi-knowledgeable, reliable, honest) because the dealerships have a compensation package they can't match (401, medical ins., retirement, paid holidays, etc.). The dealership I use is also honest, but charges full retail on everything.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,497
Likes: 3,298
From: Hartford WI
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,294
Likes: 2,754
From: Charlotte NC
Getting back to labor rates...it is all guessing game due to not every job is going to be repaired and the ten previous jobs a mechanic did on the same type of car. When I feel a customer is price shopping I basically tell them that if they are looking for a deal.... go somewhere else becasue I do it correctly...and I am not here to save them money. I am here to repair the problem. ...and people pay for that competence.
I have had so many stubborn bolts and nuts that took me an hour+ to get out and not break that YES...it was added to the estimate due to it is not my fault and why should I take my time and get it fixed RIGHT and not be paid for it. Like it is my fault that I am the lucky guy who went to remove your wheel and a lug nut was seized to the stud and it snapped off.
And like many other mechanics who have seen it in the labor guide that some of the times are not even close to reality....if a good quality job is being done.
DUB
I have had so many stubborn bolts and nuts that took me an hour+ to get out and not break that YES...it was added to the estimate due to it is not my fault and why should I take my time and get it fixed RIGHT and not be paid for it. Like it is my fault that I am the lucky guy who went to remove your wheel and a lug nut was seized to the stud and it snapped off.
And like many other mechanics who have seen it in the labor guide that some of the times are not even close to reality....if a good quality job is being done.
DUB