Tom, I think that any car that can be tuned with software like HP Tuners or EFI Live can have its throttle mapped however the owner wants. OTOH, with a cable you get what they give and have no option to change it, short of fabricating a different linkage setup from scratch. And I know people with Mustangs GTs that have remapped their throttles. Frankly, with the light flywheel and engine setup in my C4, I'd love a more gradual tip-in, but that's pretty difficult to accomplish. If it had a DBW I could just plug my tuning suite in and map it however I want.


We covered that for ABS, sort of. I'm pretty sure any modern performance car with a performance launch mode can outlaunch any human trying to drive it with no assistance from the system. The regular default TC has a very different goal in mind: to kick in at the slightest hint of slip and aggressively cut wheel torque to prevent loss of control. On the vehicles I have with DBW, they are conservative but smooth and they don't just shut off the engine like the C4 does. But they obviously aren't the fast way to accelerate. For that, you need a different mode that mostly only performance cars come with. It is faster than humans, and again the proof that it's easy to beat a human with TC is that every racing class that allows them has all entrants using it.

I didn't say you were "out to lunch," as in crazy or unaware. I said your thinking on DBW is "out in left field," as in different from the mainstream engineering perspective on the subject. I definitely did not intend to offend.

I certainly believe that some do. Many don't. As in every component on any car, it's all in how the factory chooses to implement it. Like I was saying earlier, there have been plenty of shitty transmissions, both automatic and manual, over the decades, but that doesn't mean either type of transmission is inherently bad. Likewise, there is nothing inherently bad about a DBW system. Some are obviously not good, but some work very well. And the reason I keep bringing up professional motorsports examples is to speak to that very point: if there were something inherently wrong with DBW, they wouldn't use it, but we see that they all do if allowed.

Tom, I own three vehicles with e-throttles: a 2007 VW with over 200k miles on it, a 2009 Honda with roughly 180k, and a 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee with 30k. Owned them all since new. They all have admirable throttle response. I also have had three different work vehicles assigned to me that all have DBW, and I put at least 1000mi/month on each of them for several years, and they were/are all fine (the 2014 Focus had a miserable DCT, though - just terrible). In addition, I spent a whole weekend autocrossing (probably at least 40 runs in it) a 2012 Mustang with manual trans and driving it around town from stoplight to stoplight, and never had any problems with it. I also more recently drove a friend's 2018 around town that was also quite good. Again, I don't doubt there are issues with the eTBs in some cars, but there are plenty of cars in which they work well.

Quote:

Not one of my cable throttled cars has ever beed towed away, or left me for dead on the side of the road, due to a throttle cable, a throttle arm, or a throttle pedal -these very simple devices have worked fine for the past...100 years or so?

Well Tom, I did provide two examples of cars I've personally watched crash due to cable throttles that stuck open. Also, some friends of mine watched a girl die in a kart at an autocross, and it's suspected that it was due to the throttle sticking open after the finish line (kart kept accelerating and she hit a cable way off the course). And those are hardly the only two examples of that in the world. So yeah, cable-actuated throttles certainly do fail at times, and sometimes those failures are pretty spectacular.

At this point, I feel that my presence in this thread is derailing it. It also seems to be leading to upset. Neither outcome is desirable. Nobody has been offensive to me, therefore I don't want anyone to be offended by my replies. I'm going to sign off of this thread, as I think it's in everyone's best interest.

 

Ahh.. So you DIDN'T read the thread I linked, about my C6 and the throttle. No, ya couldn't.

Also Matt...We aren't talking only about the RATE of throttle gain here (although we have talked about it some). We're talking about DELAY. If you slam the throttle down on a Cable car, or a e-throttle car, in either case, it don't matter WHAT kind of cam or programming you got...the thing should be at WOT as fast as you can move the pedal w/your foot. In e-throttle cars it don't do it. or to be more accurate, I should say that the resulting engine response is as if the throttle isn't opening instantly as it does with a cable.



You best do your homework on that one, Matt, b/c that ain't the case. Now, I have no doubt that you can find crappy drivers that claim they go quicker with the aides turned on...I'm sure they do. But if you go look at the "Fast lists" on these forums, you see that the fastest C4, C5, C6 drivers are doing it as "manually" as they can. Why? B/c the car goes slower with crap turned on. Just like I told you in the other thread.




Is "Fine" and "Admirable" the same as what you get in your C4? I'm betting that it's not. NOTE, that "fine" is fine, in a work truck, Jeep, or whatever. "Fine" isn't fine, when it's a sports car...a car that's supposed to exude athleticism and quick responses...and it's worse than the systems before it. As stated already, I'm not alone in my observations of this. You can do a search on these forums and fine many complaints about throttle delay in later 'Vettes. I posted a link above where a forum vendor discusses it. It's real.



I think we just have a different perception of the system. You're coming at it from the theoretical advantages...which I totally agree are significant. I'm coming at it from how it's executed in the real world, in which case it sucks. Also, apparently our perception of the effect is different, too. For me it was bad enough to be ~40% responsible for me not liking, and selling my C6.


.

 

This isn't specifically about throttle response. But a friend of mine sent me this interesting article today.

STUNTS USING NEW CARS

And therefore less fun to drive.

 

F-Body 98/99 throttle body cam is different from 2000-02. 98/99 open faster.

Not all things mechanical are equal.

My C6 was not linear at all in throttle progression but with 500 rwtq at 2k rpms doesn't need a fast tip in. lol Though we did sharpen it a bit better than stock.

 

My stock C6 wasn't linear either. It all happened in the middle 3rd of the throttle.

 

I read THIS ARTICLE and thought of this thread. Note about 1/2 way down....

"With all systems off, the Vette turned its best lap"

Even with the latest technology cars, we're still seeing good human drivers, out-drive the driver assisted configuration. The assist (TC, AH, ABS...whatever)...negatively impacts what the good drive can do with the car.

 

The tuning is conservative to keep people off the limit. It'll make a decent driver 90% but an excellent one will be better with it off albeit however slightly.

 

Yes. Now automobiles that shut off at a stop. And re-start when the accelerator is engaged. Almost everyone hates them and on some autos it cannot be turned off. One of the few mistakes Trump has made is NOT firing leftovers imposing stringent regulations.

 

even if it became deregulated here most vehicles are in a global market. There is a reason why trucks and SUVs don't have it, they're main market is here. Mid sized and others are marketed globally and it's easier to just leave it than have to cert two different platforms. I doubt it would go away...