If it were my car and it didn't, I would install one, if for nothing else, to monitor what is happening. Yes, I agree. Eons ago, it WAS the best thing AVAILABLE. Not anymore, it isn't.

 

Could it also lose fuel mileage, besides power, because it retards the timing? IOW, will it be a case of "What the pump giveth, the knock sensor taketh?"

 

Sure enough Aklim. I'd love to see your home made knock sensor added onto your Ford EEC IV ECM
No one is trying to claim that modern engine controls don't produce better engine control. You originally asked, relative to '80's Mustang tuning methods, if: "Isn't that a little too late by the time you hear the pinging over the engine roaring at WOT,"

The Answer is "NO". The practice of advancing timing until there is audible ping, then backing off a few degrees worked great. It was not "too late". The engines ran fantastic for decades, thousands of Mustang owners did that "mod" or "tune" and even Fast Ford and Muscle Mustangs magazine did an article about that specific adjustment to late '80's Mustangs that was part of the "10 MINUTE TUNE UP" that yielded 13 second passes out of 225 horse Mustangs. No, it wasn't "too late". It worked great, the cars ripped (for the time) and lots of people did it...myself included.

 

The difference in SE Wisconsin is a not-so-insignificant 80 cents per gallon. $2.40 vs 3.20. Considering all of my driving is pretty mundane I compromise with mid-grade at $2.60. We get along fine. 28mpg and more power than I need.

 

While higher octane fuel will not prevent preignition, it WILL reduce/prevent detonation, which is the more harmful.

As far as winter storage: add a healthy dose of Chevron Techron and a healthy dose of Stabil, drive the car for about 10 miles, then put it away. Keep a battery maintainer on it. If possible, put the car on jackstands to save the tires from flatspotting.

 

You are right, and I said that wrong. Detonation can cause pre-ignition, but the detonation has to occur first.

Jared

 

I know I have seen it on at least 2 late 80s Mustang where you can monitor the knock sensor with some white colored box with some sort of indicator. At the very least, you have some way to know it is knocking before it knocks loud enough to hear over the engine noise. As to retrofitting to the EEC IV, I can't say I have spent much time dissecting it so who knows? If we could hook up an 88 Turbo Coupe computer to the Merkur XR4Ti by changing pins, someone might have figured a way to get a knock sensor to work. If not, there probably are aftermarket standalone ECMS to have better control. Even back in the 90s we had Accel DFI for both the F-body and Fox.

I don't disagree that it was the best way for the time. I believe there are better ways than trusting your ear to hear it today. My thought is that by the time you hear it, it has occurred for a while. Shortening that time with a more sensitive device would, IMO be better than waiting for it to become audible. The less time the engine has to knock, and it probably has started for a bit until you hear it, the better. Unless that is what you disagree with?

 

That was one too many "Stabil" posts. Help me out here: I've never used Stabil. I've never jacked my car for winter storage. I've never added Techron.

How have my toys been able to start and run for the past 20+ years?

Fill the tank, change the oil, and park it.

 

I think this whole conversation is a waste of band width.

The premise was advance until you knock, then back off a few degrees. That should be sufficient that there is no meaningful knock. Not convinced? Run it some and check the plugs...then you know.

 

[QUOTE=Tom400CFI;1600308604The premise was advance until you knock, then back off a few degrees. That should be sufficient that there is no meaningful knock. Not convinced? Run it some and check the plugs...then you know. [/QUOTE]

I agree with all you said and I also agree it was the best way to do it. I also say we can do better or do you disagree with that?

https://www.motorsportselectronics.c...nt=17037690500

 

Yesterday I worked on a car that had been parked for over 3 years. It was a '96 LT1 in an Impala.

The tank was about 7/8 full and there had been no additives put in when it was parked years ago. I swapped the battery and tried the key. It cranked about a second and started. I took it for a drive and it ran fine. Both smooth running and it felt like normal power.

When I have experiences like this where the gas has been sitting for years and still runs fine, it makes me think putting in additives for a few months over the winter is a waste. I have never seen gas go bad so quickly that a few months is a problem. Just fill it up so that you don't get condensation water in the gas and you should be fine.

 

The only things I do are roll mine a short ways because the race slicks get serious flat spots and a battery tender.

 

I agree that in a different era we have better options. No doubt about that at all. That is stating the obvious and the very essence of the post/point that I was making to "CorvetteRules". -That his method for determining that the LT1 doesn't have ignition feedback control b/c the '88 Mustang didn't, was folly. Obviously, only 4 years after the "88 5.0", we had (some) cars that had dual knock sensors, very precise timing control and good feedback. So, quite clearly.... "we can do it better", 30+ years later. That's not what your original post was implying at all, however.

 

Isn't that kind of subjective? The ECM changes things around and you would need to remember exactly what it felt like years ago and the butt dyno is pretty subjective unless the difference is huge.

I could also tell you that gas I used in say October smells different from that same can of gas in June but how much is real? OTOH, if someone has done an ATSM D525 test, we'll, that might be different.

http://adlersantiqueautos.com/articl...erstorage.html

 

Yes it is very subjective. My comment was simply to show that after over 3 years, the gas worked fine. The car drove normally about what I expected.

Could it have run better with fresh gas? Probably. I was not trying to provide an exact test or comparison, only that old gas can still run ok after a long time without additives.

 

Come on...you bought a "performance " car feed it the best you can. Remember garbage in garbage out.

 

Oh dear Lord...is ^this^ stuff for real, Aklim? Of ALL the people on this forum, how many of us are taking cars out of storage (after ~4 months)....and right to the race track -where absolute, wicked badasses record setting performance actually matters? I think that it's safe to say that if a guy can't tell the diff after sitting for 3 years, most of us ain't gonna notice a diff on a sunny spring Sunday drive -after ~4 months. Wouldn't you agree? And it's one freakin' tank anyway! Holy cow.

Bingo. But I'll go one further. I actually have taken my car out of winter storage and driven it straight to the track on it's "old", non Stabil'ized tank of gas. Right down to our high elevation drag track I went, with my stock '92. My goal was to confirm the car was running as well as it should, still. How did it do? First pass of the evening, I warmed up my tires a little, staged....13.74/101...fastest pass the car ever made at this elevation. Was that "kind of subjective"? s


I think that we can safely say that somehow....my car "survived" that winter intact...w/o using Stabil, etc.

 

Well, if what you can feel in your butt-o-meter is good enough for you, I guess. I would not run it in my lawn mower since it seems to take more work starting it with year old gas but again, if you feel that slop is good enough for you, go for it. I don't race my lawnmower either

Statistically meaningless number so I'm not sure what you would categorize it as.

Again, if "survived" is what you look for, it is "fine". I "survived" making minimum wage when I was in school. Pretty sure I don't want to do it unless I have no choice.

 

And around the Aklimy-go-round we go...again.

"Survived" was sarcasm, Aklim. Sarcasm. Car ran the fastest it's ever gone at this elevation.


Fastest the car's ever gone at this elevation. My mower runs fine on winter-old gas. I think you need a new mower....or someone who knows how to tune it up.

You don't know much about stats....do you? FASTEST the CAR has EVER GONE at this elevation. Above you chided QCVette for whipping out the "Butt-o-meter". Even though he wasn't actually talking outright performance data...just that a car ran "fine" and the butt-o-meter is probably sufficient for that...you still had to call him out on it. Now, I throw down the FASTEST the CAR has EVER GONE at this elevation, which, statistically, means of the tons of passes that I've made on that car, at this track, all in the high 13's, I pull it out of storage w/winter's old gas, drive to RMR....and lay down the FASTEST the CAR has EVER GONE at this elevation at this track. Now we can debate the living beJEEZUS out of your interpretation of that "stat"...but the point? Does this even need further explanation Aklim? FOR REAL?? 4 month, 6 month...whatever gas certainly can work and it does. Ya didn't like the Butt-o-meter so I give you a time slip....now ya don't like that b/c...."Stats"? So you go looking for some angle to argue that?? Of course you do...b/c you're Aklim, and so around the Alkimy-go-round we go some more....


It's obvious that YOU should pour Stabil into your gas tank...you know, to help you with your "stats". Then you should jam a can of Seafoam up each of your orifices for good measure. Finally chug a bottle of PRO LONG to treat the psychological problem that you're fearing and come spring....your lawn mower should be good to go, Aklim!


.

 

I only read words on the screen not meanings into words. Sorry.

I'm sure the factory tuned it reasonably since I did test both it and the power washer. Both were about 2 months old.

Explain how it proves that the difference between old vs new gas in that vehicle did not make a difference. Perhaps I missed that part? You sound like you know what you are talking about so do tell. Did you do back to back runs with BOTH new and old gas and come up with relatively similar time slips? Because THAT would solidify your case if you can honestly say it.

I do not use Seafoam for lawn mowers so if you want to jam it up your orifices, I'll buy you a can. Same with the Pro Long, whatever it is supposed to do.

Here is how I tested the year plus old gas. Feel free to critique the methodology. It was one over 8 days. Temperatures were relatively similar according to the weather channel. (plus or minus 5 degrees or less). One can had a date of May and the other was bought in August so it was the summer blend of fuel probably. Both 4 stroke motors.

I logged the number of pulls and the time it took to get to stable idle under load (Pressure washer since it had some self adjusting carb). Day 1 was forgotten old gas. After stabilization of idle I would suck the gas out and put new gas, run it for a couple of minutes, enough to get it to the carb. After that, shut down and test it the next day. Same procedure to introduce old gas. 4 days of old gas, 4 days of freshly bought gas. Can you tell me why both appliances took over 50% more pulls to start and the pressure washer longer to stabilize? Both factory tunes not good? Without getting snarky or personal, that is? OR is that beyond you? Feel free to insult my mother next if you must.

Let me also say this from the bottom of my heart. I would honestly love to hear a good reason why 2 appliances consistently didn't run as well the gas in the can that was forgotten for more than a year. I'm happy to buy a larger quantity of gas at a time as opposed to getting 5 gallons at a time to keep it fresh. Go ahead, educate me and do me a favor, please.