Better use em while you can
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,648
Likes: 1,059
From: N.E. Ohio OH
Finalist 2020 C4 of the Year - Modified
Politicians, which are lawyers for the most part, are not taught critical thinking. They are taught speech and some types of thinking, but not critical. They never get past the point that electric cars don't pollute as they drive and get to the upstream parts where the pollution is swapped off to. (which you all have spoke about).
And then you get politicians like the one(s) from NY that never does get to step A, but stops at pie in the sky option.
They also tend to stop or get diverted by the greased wallet option.
Some of the truths about electric vehicles and the upstream effects:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...-power-energy/
https://www.engineering.com/Electron...-Wreck-It.aspx
My opinion is that "they" have picked out the wrong horse to ride (Lithium derived batteries).
Unfortunately the usage of oil based fuels for internal combustion is like the malevolent genie. You know, you find the bottle, wish that something is long enough to drag the ground and Wa La, your legs are 2 inches long, While the use of fossil fuels has given us the ability to modernize society, it also has enabled us to kill each other more efficiently and faster, etc.
Everything has its trade-offs unfortunately.
And then you get politicians like the one(s) from NY that never does get to step A, but stops at pie in the sky option.
They also tend to stop or get diverted by the greased wallet option.
Some of the truths about electric vehicles and the upstream effects:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...-power-energy/
https://www.engineering.com/Electron...-Wreck-It.aspx
My opinion is that "they" have picked out the wrong horse to ride (Lithium derived batteries).
Unfortunately the usage of oil based fuels for internal combustion is like the malevolent genie. You know, you find the bottle, wish that something is long enough to drag the ground and Wa La, your legs are 2 inches long, While the use of fossil fuels has given us the ability to modernize society, it also has enabled us to kill each other more efficiently and faster, etc.
Everything has its trade-offs unfortunately.
Last edited by drcook; Oct 28, 2019 at 05:51 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
Damn....those were some good reading. Thanks for posing the links, drcook!
Do you think this guy has an agenda? Is he "bought" by the Electric contingent? I doubt it; he owns a sporty, supercharged gas car. All we can do is look at as much evidence as is available, then decide for ourselves. How believable and well explained is the evidence in this particular video? Is it better than someone making an uneducated, blanket claim about EV's vs. ICEV's? What other believable evidence (with data), can we find to support both sides, is there? When yous start to look carefully, it begins to become pretty obvious what is most likely the truth, or 'most right'.
I used to believe that EV's were greater polluters overall. I rationalized my personal gas fleet choice with that belief....but as I read and learned more, I came to believe that was folly. I suspect that you could cherry pick a scenario where an EV is worse and build a case....but I also suspect as companies get better at building, sourcing, and disposal/recycling that case will diminish, where that won't happen w/ICE cars; they're already recycled about as efficiently as they ever will be.
.
I used to believe that EV's were greater polluters overall. I rationalized my personal gas fleet choice with that belief....but as I read and learned more, I came to believe that was folly. I suspect that you could cherry pick a scenario where an EV is worse and build a case....but I also suspect as companies get better at building, sourcing, and disposal/recycling that case will diminish, where that won't happen w/ICE cars; they're already recycled about as efficiently as they ever will be.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; Oct 28, 2019 at 10:26 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 202
From: Trinity FL
It's been a while for me since I researched this but isn't the Lithium Ore mined in Central and South America and then shipped to another country for refinement, and then shipped to Asia for the actual production of the lithium ion batteries for the electric vehicles? I think that is the biggest down fall to electric vehicles most do not realize. Sure, building something new has a negative environmental impact and, sure you still have to charge these cars and most of the electricity comes from a coal burning power plant but I think the real issue with them is the mining and production of the Lithium Batteries. They are mined with heavy diesel equipment, loaded on huge diesel powered ships, and then refined at a factory, and then sent to another factory for production.
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 45,000
Likes: 586
You know what costs less than a new car? A yearly tax on the old one.
Not that I am ok with it, but until the .gov GIVES ME a car, I get to choose what I'll drive and pay for.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 262
From: Park Ridge New Jersey
Where'd you read that they're going to take away your car and force you to buy a new one? This is what was reported in the linked article:
"The New York Democrat's plan would give American car buyers thousands of dollars each to trade in gas-burning cars for U.S.-assembled electric, hybrid or hydrogen cell cars."
I don't see anything about mandatory confiscation in there...
Live well,
SJW
"The New York Democrat's plan would give American car buyers thousands of dollars each to trade in gas-burning cars for U.S.-assembled electric, hybrid or hydrogen cell cars."
I don't see anything about mandatory confiscation in there...
Live well,
SJW
"The New York Democrat's plan would give American car buyers thousands of dollars each to trade in gas-burning cars for U.S.-assembled electric, hybrid or hydrogen cell cars."
give American car buyers thousands of dollars<<<<<this is my point where do they get "thousands of dollars"....our tax money
Didn't we do that years ago where everyone traded in their gas guzzling Ford explorers (via a gov't program) and because of some restrictions (gas mileage? I forgot), it "steered you" toward a nice foreign car
U.S.-assembled electric, hybrid or hydrogen cell cars <<<<<why not designed, engineered and manufactured in the U.S., we know "when U.S. assembled" is a nice way for foreign manufactures to avoid taxes/tariffs (not help the U.S. worker)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 262
From: Park Ridge New Jersey
It's been a while for me since I researched this but isn't the Lithium Ore mined in Central and South America and then shipped to another country for refinement, and then shipped to Asia for the actual production of the lithium ion batteries for the electric vehicles? I think that is the biggest down fall to electric vehicles most do not realize. Sure, building something new has a negative environmental impact and, sure you still have to charge these cars and most of the electricity comes from a coal burning power plant but I think the real issue with them is the mining and production of the Lithium Batteries. They are mined with heavy diesel equipment, loaded on huge diesel powered ships, and then refined at a factory, and then sent to another factory for production.
and then the resources to transport and manufacture the batteries, then the electricity used to charge the batteries....boy are they saving the planet!!
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 17,389
Likes: 6,531
From: Melbourne, FL
Damn....those were some good reading. Thanks for posing the links, drcook!
Do you think this guy has an agenda? Is he "bought" by the Electric contingent? I doubt it; he owns a sporty, supercharged gas car. All we can do is look at as much evidence as is available, then decide for ourselves. How believable and well explained is the evidence in this particular video? Is it better than someone making an uneducated, blanket claim about EV's vs. ICEV's? What other believable evidence (with data), can we find to support both sides, is there? When yous start to look carefully, it begins to become pretty obvious what is most likely the truth, or 'most right'.
https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM
https://youtu.be/1mXSMwZUiCU
I used to believe that EV's were greater polluters overall. I rationalized my personal gas fleet choice with that belief....but as I read and learned more, I came to believe that was folly. I suspect that you could cherry pick a scenario where an EV is worse and build a case....but I also suspect as companies get better at building, sourcing, and disposal/recycling that case will diminish, where that won't happen w/ICE cars; they're already recycled about as efficiently as they ever will be.
.
Do you think this guy has an agenda? Is he "bought" by the Electric contingent? I doubt it; he owns a sporty, supercharged gas car. All we can do is look at as much evidence as is available, then decide for ourselves. How believable and well explained is the evidence in this particular video? Is it better than someone making an uneducated, blanket claim about EV's vs. ICEV's? What other believable evidence (with data), can we find to support both sides, is there? When yous start to look carefully, it begins to become pretty obvious what is most likely the truth, or 'most right'.
https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM
https://youtu.be/1mXSMwZUiCU
I used to believe that EV's were greater polluters overall. I rationalized my personal gas fleet choice with that belief....but as I read and learned more, I came to believe that was folly. I suspect that you could cherry pick a scenario where an EV is worse and build a case....but I also suspect as companies get better at building, sourcing, and disposal/recycling that case will diminish, where that won't happen w/ICE cars; they're already recycled about as efficiently as they ever will be.
.
Frankly, I dont care if electrics are cleaner overall, I dont want one. I still dont think they're the solution or even an improvement, just a dangerous distraction to the real issues.
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 42
Likes: 16
The subject here is the infamous Global Warming or Climate Change issue. Whether you believe in it or not, It's a predicament the world is facing and eventually will be forced to deal with either now or in a few years. Our cars and the fuel they burn pollute, simple as that. Some pollute much more than others. Do you want to continue having older polluting cars on the road, or do you want to breathe and live a healthy life? I'm for a moderate conversion to hybrid, electric, and hydrogen vehicles to eventually make up the majority of car manufacturer's lineups. I'm in my late 50s and would like to have a clean planet with air I can't chew on and taste. I know this issue is controversial now, but eventually important for everyone. Actually, over the next 10 years the older cars on the road will usually diminish on their own (except for collector, sport, and muscle cars) and will be replaced with newer less polluting engine technology anyway. Don't force us with legally registered Corvettes to participate in a trade-in program, but offer great incentives for those who do!
Last edited by 28uniflite; Oct 28, 2019 at 12:36 PM.
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Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
I trust that guy THE LEAST. He's an idiot that thinks he's a genius. And several of his other videos are simply lies. He knows his market though, and what they want to hear and how they want to hear it.
Frankly, I dont care if electrics are cleaner overall, I dont want one. I still dont think they're the solution or even an improvement, just a dangerous distraction to the real issues.
Frankly, I dont care if electrics are cleaner overall, I dont want one. I still dont think they're the solution or even an improvement, just a dangerous distraction to the real issues.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,648
Likes: 1,059
From: N.E. Ohio OH
Finalist 2020 C4 of the Year - Modified
All that money given to buy cars will only get junkers off the street, assuming that the folks who have to buy junkers would even have the income, let alone credit score to buy an electric vehicle. The ones that would are the ones that have the income and want a "status" symbol.
Then do you think that dealers are going to scrap out cars that can be resold ? Especially newer ones ? It would let folks that are a bit leveraged get above water and be able to trade theirs off, but if the EV dealers don't give appropriate trade in values, who would trade them in ? And if they did, they aren't going to take a loss, they will be resold to the next tier down folks, just like it is today.
As I said, they don't think things through beyond point A or B. Otherwise we would have never heard "Have to pass it to see what's in it".
Then do you think that dealers are going to scrap out cars that can be resold ? Especially newer ones ? It would let folks that are a bit leveraged get above water and be able to trade theirs off, but if the EV dealers don't give appropriate trade in values, who would trade them in ? And if they did, they aren't going to take a loss, they will be resold to the next tier down folks, just like it is today.
As I said, they don't think things through beyond point A or B. Otherwise we would have never heard "Have to pass it to see what's in it".
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
Not sure Retroguy (or anyone in this thread) was telling you or anyone how to spend your money or how you should be regulated. Even the original article was talking about an incentive on a certain type of car...not a regulation eliminating certain cars.
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 42
Likes: 16
The government cannot give an "incentive" to anyone without first reaching their hands into my pocket (and yours if you pay taxes) to get some money. So when Retroguy says "Don't force us with legally registered Corvettes to participate in a trade-in program, but offer great incentives for those who do!" , where exactly does he think those "great incentives" will come from?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,582
Likes: 968
From: Communist Colorado
Yea, its really hot here today.... says the 8" of snow that has fallen.... and we will have another storm in 2 days from now.... but hey, a meteorologist predicted it, so it cant be "for real".....Drink more of the Kool Aide man.... you are welcome to "donate your money" to a BS made up liberal agenda.... I wont do it if possible... All I can do is vote and not buy products that further advance an agenda to control another aspect of my life.... like I said.... more power to ya !
BTW, I dont see anyone talking about the fires all over the country & world that happen EVERY SINGLE YEAR..... many caused by lightening strikes.... I think theres allot of Co2 emissions coming from them.... but that doesn't fit the agenda so no one wants to talk about that.... Has to be my V8 Pick up truck and my 30 year old Corvette doing all the damage... Screw that! Its about money and control... nothing else.
Last edited by 81c3; Oct 28, 2019 at 05:06 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 17,389
Likes: 6,531
From: Melbourne, FL
The other problem with the whole issues is even if we in the US totally stopped emitting carbon, we would still be screwed because all the 3rd world thinaks it's their right to pollute to grow.
Literally, that's what their argument t was during the Paris Accords. They committed to basically nothing because they felt that being at all clean would put financial burden on them, and that the US should give them money to offset it.
The really unfortunate part is, reality is, there isnt a solution to this that allows for population growth, or likely even population to remain steady. There are too many of us for the planet to support with equilibrium. That's not a solution that any real technology can solve.
Literally, that's what their argument t was during the Paris Accords. They committed to basically nothing because they felt that being at all clean would put financial burden on them, and that the US should give them money to offset it.
The really unfortunate part is, reality is, there isnt a solution to this that allows for population growth, or likely even population to remain steady. There are too many of us for the planet to support with equilibrium. That's not a solution that any real technology can solve.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
@81c3: Right on man. Thanks!
I think if you looked at my fleet, you'd see that I'm no more "donating my money to a BS made up liberal agenda"....than you are. This diff is that I'm open to and thoughtful of other ideas.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; Oct 28, 2019 at 05:56 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,582
Likes: 968
From: Communist Colorado
I mean banks arent in business to make money right? If you think they had hard data about climate change impacting their profits saying they wouldn't be paid in the future that they would make millions of dollars in loans on beachfront property that will be under water in 10 years?
I dont know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember when the "scientists" were saying we were going to all die because the world would freeze..... that didnt really pan out too well did it? So they attempted another angle.... lets tell them all were going to burn to death now... that didn't work out too well either.... So lets call it CLIMATE CHANGE..... that fits the agenda no matter what the weather does.... All the sheeple will buy right into that... and you did!
Me thinks its your head thats in the sand.... or .... ahh never mind.
Last edited by 81c3; Oct 28, 2019 at 07:32 PM.