As some of you know I am putting FMS 24# injectors in my 93 and am now aware of the WOT/closed loop issues. Question is it is better to get Ski_it_dwn to burn my chip or buy a AFPR on it. I PM'ed Ski on a price but is there any advantage to either way? I do not plan any major upgrades in the near future just want the best solution to get the best performance.

 

AFPR. Save the chip burn for when you get real power.

 

I tend to agree with Bogus.

The ECM should take care of closed loop A/F and an AFPR will allow you to tune for WOT operation.

And you can adjust fuel pressure for best operation now which will give the chip burner more data to work with when tuning the fuel tables.

In your case I would wait for feedback from Ski_down_it to get his take on the issue. Generally you get a better spray pattern from a little more fuel pressure (to a point), so dropping fuel pressure may not be the best way to go here though I don't think it would be harmful.

Personally I like the flexability of having the AFPR on my fuel rail. Later, when I need more fuel or more detailed tuning I will go with a custom burn.

Good luck on a resolution of the issues.

 

Wouldn't a burn solve both ends of the problem? If the ecm knows it is a 24# injector shouldn't it alter it all the way to WOT. I also heard if Ski does it once he will do it later if mods are done for free( a good deal if true) Plus it may be more than 1/2 cheaper than buying an AFPR. I will give you the feedback on this once Ski gets back to me.

 

AFPR Its a good thing to have

 

I'd get the AFPR first.

 

I still do not get the benefit of the AFPR($150 about) if I plan to stay stock except for the injectors . If the ECM is changed won't it take care of all issues and a burn is a lot less $$$ I am not real cheap but dont want to waste money on something that will not give me much value.

 

AFPR whats it good for??

Well in my case not much, I installed one hoping to fix a rich idle problem. So having an LT1 and not wanting to spend a lot of $ I purchased the TPIS, LT1 AFPR hat kit for 50$. After installing the kit I set my FP to 38psi at idle with vacuum applied, no vacuum it goes up to 42psi. Before the kit my pressures where 42/47psi.
After driving a week the only difference in the old to new EASE scans is the IPW’s (injector pulse widths) at WOT (wide open throttle) increased from 9.80mS to 10.45mS as a result of the lower pressures. Same thing at idle in gear, 3.3mS to 3.43mS. So the chip compensated for the lower pressure and I ended up with about the same amount of fuel.
I felt the need to post this because IMO a AFPR on a stock or mildly modded ECM controlled car is a waste of $.

 

My reply on this issue from ski_dwn_it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeasysport
I hear you are the man for chip burning. I am going to put FMS24# injectors in my pure stock 93 LT1 and have read about the WOT and possible closed loop issues. I went to you website but see no Price to burn my chip. What will it cost and what is the turnaround time? I live on the Ohio/Pa border.Any tips on how to package it so it wont get damaged?



Yeah I can help you with your chip. The 24# injectors will run too rich with your current settings and will need tweaked. Using a AFPR is just a bandaid and will not be fully taylored like a tune will be.

The cost of the chip is 250+10 dollars shipping. Payable in money order. That is 1/2 what others pay and I will redo the chips for the cost of the shipping back. So when you do your next round of mods, you can just send it back to me and I will happily redo the tune.

The best way to ship the chip is in a static free bag, and in a box. Avoid the use of plastic or other static creating material. In a box with newspapers crubled up would be fine. Be sure to include the information

The turnaround time is about 3 business days from receipt

Look forward to talking with you more. PLease let me know when you ship it out, so I can be watching for it.

Regards,

Jesse

 

Ready Sport, is your car a 93 Auto? If so, and you can find one of the adpaters that Ed Wright etc use to put there chips on to piggy back to your factory chip I can give you a chip. It is for a 93 Automatic, no headers with 1.6 rollers etc. It should work for your Vette, and it ran 24# injectors. Let me know, and I can mail it to you. Steve

 

Mine is bone stock just replacing the injectors I sent you an E-mail. If it will work on my car sure I will Take it and appreciate it very much.
I just found out that the 4 letter code on both our chips must match for it to work after talking to ed wright can you give me yours so I can check mine to make sure?
Will a moates adapter work on this?

 

Forget I ever offered my $.02 because the all high lord and master of tuning disagrees with me.

 

IMHO the AFPR is just a bandaid for several reasons.

The stock WOT setting are grossly over rich. So by adding 24# injectors - your going to be intensifying this already out of calibration point in the tune.

With the addition of an AFPR, you can make global changes - but again the because the fuel curve is already not right, you will only be able to trim the entire curve down, which will then make part throttle lean and WOT on, or part throttle on and WOT still too rich. Which is why I say its a bandaid to the real problem.

In addition, the #24 injectors supply more fuel at a lower pressure so now your going to be reducing the pressure to even a further point, which is going to greatly effect the spray pattern of the injectors and reduce overall efficiency from a fuel atomization standpoint.

Lastly, for the record I see time and time again people offering to "change the injector constant" for others. There is A LOT more to tuning a fuel curve than just changing the injector constant. If that is all you had to worry about life would be great and by now someone would have come up with a device that you could get at Autozone to up the constant or trick it into calibration. When you change fuel, you must also change spark, and many other parameters, such at Accelerator Enrichment, Startup fuel delivery etc.

This is a good conversation because I believe that a lot of people have this misconception of the ECMs function. As a matter of fact, most of the time the way things work out, is the injector constant is usually needed to be higher than the actual injector value.

 

Thanks for chiming in Ski I think a lot of guys were thinking I am for not believing AFPR was the way to address this problem and someone with your experience weighing in on this may clear some fog for others who have or are doing what I am.BTW I blew my budget for this week on the injectors but will probably be getting back to you for the burn as soon as I get the money up. Geeze my garage is starting to look like a "Vette supply whare house

 

Not worth arguing with a brick wall.

 

Nathan.

Where did you gather that I did not like you. I have no reason to dislike you. So making statements like that are unfounded. Because we do not agree from time to time does not mean that I dislike you.

In addition, I have done many tunes for many different setups from supercharged to stock and have had great success. I have done setups so extreme they would not idle and barely stay running in the descriptions from the owners. These tunes contrary to what you say stating they are a blind guess have turned out VERY well and have run stronger than most of the cars here.

Both 85vet's and Corkvette's cars have NEVER had a scanner attached to them. And I would say they perform better than a "blind guess" tune would output. There are many others as well that run in the 11s which is nothing to sneeze at. In addition, one of the larger performance shops here on the site have also asked me to tune their chips after trying one of my tunes on their 383 and stating they never put out a motor as good running as that.

At the end of the day, understand that the only "fools" are those without an open mind to what is possible and ignore the results...

 

Still not worth arguing with a brick wall.

 

Nathan,

Your preaching to the chore here. I have done enough research and calculations over the last three years to figure out what these things need it would make your head spin.

The spreadsheet I use to tabulate the fuel curve based on airflow and other parameters is nearing 12MB and 4 worksheets. So while you may assume there is a bunch of guessing going on - your sadly mistaken.

Furthermore, assuming that the cars I do tunes for corky, jim and myself's in particular, that they never see anything except strip miles is again a mis-assumption. As a matter of fact all three of them see several thousand miles combined each year. That might not sound like a lot, but remember we live in PA where the weather the last few years is not real co-operative. I would without hesitation drive my car to and from the strip if I did not have to run slicks and drive 2.5+ hours to the strip each way. That is a little far to sit at the track with a broken 1/2 shaft or something waiting for the tow truck that is going to sock you 200+ dollars.

In addition, with either of these cars in question, I will bet a steak dinner that the part thottle, idle and WOT tunes can't get any better. And to boot, remember these cars are running setups that most guys long ago would have switched to DFI or equivalent systems to operate. With my new cam, the duration and overlap, would send 99% of the people running to the archieves searching for what to do. But to my knowledge - this is one of the largest cams to be run on the stock system and I would be happy to take you for a ride on the street in about 1 month after its dialed in and the weather clears.

Its pretty obvious to some, even some of the much better known tuners that I do know what I am doing. This individual will remain unknown for obvious reasons, but one of the better known gurus in the hobby contacted me to tune "HIS" new setup. I see nothing wrong with that - since I have much more experience with 400+ inch motors than most of the people out there. So to us it makes perfectly good sense to cut some of the learning curve out and jump to what I already know. Its not because he can't tune - but rather he trusts my "guestimates".

I spent 3 years on the TGO agruing the finer points of tuning with the boys over there and they always said I did not know what I was doing. I still head on over there to the board to see them stumbling over one another on the obvious points. And still see them struggling with 400+ motor trying to break into the 12sec range, or twin turbo motors beraking the 13s barrier.

At the end of the day you have to look at the success ratio and results one gets, cause that is what tuning is all about. Anyone can slice and dice the "tuning cake" anyway they like - in the end - how it tastes (runs) is what matters.

 

Hey Guys, Why dont we just have a tuning war! You both need to make a tune of Redeasysport, using whatever methods you need, IE Dyno, computer logging etc. ANd then at noon at a dragstrip near you we will shoot each other Seriously, you both are awesome, in just the fact you can talk this jargon. Hell, I hook up my Diacom Plus and go WOW, whats it mean.
Carburetors, points etc, thats what I am talking about, the good ol' days.

 

Nope, still not worth it.