AFPR or chip burn best solution?
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Nathan,
Think about what your saying in this post. On one hand your telling me that I am making a guess and that is wrong (because I can't get all the BLMs in your opinion for all the cells at 128) - while on the other hand your telling a guy that he can run an injector that is going to put more fuel into the car, skew his BLMs off 128 and its ok.
Furthermore, what needs to be said is just because your BLMs are not at 128 does not mean your loosing power or running rich or lean. For several reasons: (1) if your at 132BLMs (on the lean side), the ECM is more than capable of adjusting this amount and your still running an AFR of 14.7 if everything is working properly. 02s ect. (2) At WOT the 02 for all intense purposes are ignored, so your slight off 128BLM condition is not going to effect WOT retargeting. And I will not get into the detail of this with you as I would hate to ruin your learning experience that you should at some time come to figure out.
The only time your tune is truely out of whack is when the BLMs are not able to adjust to their given limits and cell boundries are not in the proper place - again another learning experience I don't want to ruin for you.
So you might be asking. Then why does he need a tune....recall I mentioned nothing in the above about throttle response - related to timing, Accelerator Enrichment, ect. Nor do I mention the benefits of attack rates on knock counts or recovery rates...there is a freebie for those that can read into this information...And I still did not mention the other 30+ thing that should be changed......
It's an interesting conversation non the less.
Think about what your saying in this post. On one hand your telling me that I am making a guess and that is wrong (because I can't get all the BLMs in your opinion for all the cells at 128) - while on the other hand your telling a guy that he can run an injector that is going to put more fuel into the car, skew his BLMs off 128 and its ok.
Furthermore, what needs to be said is just because your BLMs are not at 128 does not mean your loosing power or running rich or lean. For several reasons: (1) if your at 132BLMs (on the lean side), the ECM is more than capable of adjusting this amount and your still running an AFR of 14.7 if everything is working properly. 02s ect. (2) At WOT the 02 for all intense purposes are ignored, so your slight off 128BLM condition is not going to effect WOT retargeting. And I will not get into the detail of this with you as I would hate to ruin your learning experience that you should at some time come to figure out.
The only time your tune is truely out of whack is when the BLMs are not able to adjust to their given limits and cell boundries are not in the proper place - again another learning experience I don't want to ruin for you.
So you might be asking. Then why does he need a tune....recall I mentioned nothing in the above about throttle response - related to timing, Accelerator Enrichment, ect. Nor do I mention the benefits of attack rates on knock counts or recovery rates...there is a freebie for those that can read into this information...And I still did not mention the other 30+ thing that should be changed......
It's an interesting conversation non the less.
Originally Posted by Nathan Plemons
I'll just say that no matter how well informed, an educated guess is still just a guess. I'm not going to argue the point any further.
Back to the original post I'll say this and then I'm stepping out of this thread entirely. I have a 92 which for all intents and purposes is identical to your 93. I have run stock injectors, FMS 24's, FMS 36's and FMS 42's. The FMS 36's and 42's both introduced some tip in throttle response issues that could be solved with enough tuning. The FMS 24's have no appreciable impact on the way the car starts / drives / runs. They make no impact on dragstrip E.T. or MPH nor do they have any appreciable effect on wide open throttle power. I am currently running factory stock injectors as they are supposed to have a better flow pattern.
If you are doing a bunch of other modifications you might want to invest your money in a new chip. If injectors are our only change save your money.
If you want to pay Jesse or anybody else a bunch of money to burn you a new chip, enjoy. Your car will be faster because you have a lighter wallet.
Back to the original post I'll say this and then I'm stepping out of this thread entirely. I have a 92 which for all intents and purposes is identical to your 93. I have run stock injectors, FMS 24's, FMS 36's and FMS 42's. The FMS 36's and 42's both introduced some tip in throttle response issues that could be solved with enough tuning. The FMS 24's have no appreciable impact on the way the car starts / drives / runs. They make no impact on dragstrip E.T. or MPH nor do they have any appreciable effect on wide open throttle power. I am currently running factory stock injectors as they are supposed to have a better flow pattern.
If you are doing a bunch of other modifications you might want to invest your money in a new chip. If injectors are our only change save your money.
If you want to pay Jesse or anybody else a bunch of money to burn you a new chip, enjoy. Your car will be faster because you have a lighter wallet.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,284
Likes: 4
From: Canton MI
Jesse,
if you can tune your car with this new cam , im selling my FAST and buying a stock ECM and have you tune it
the cam in my car is the exact same . and not one person was able to tune it for me with the stock ECM. i also emailed you about my brothers tune , did you get it ???
if you can tune your car with this new cam , im selling my FAST and buying a stock ECM and have you tune it
the cam in my car is the exact same . and not one person was able to tune it for me with the stock ECM. i also emailed you about my brothers tune , did you get it ???
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Originally Posted by red L98
Jesse,
if you can tune your car with this new cam , im selling my FAST and buying a stock ECM and have you tune it the cam in my car is the exact same . and not one person was able to tune it for me with the stock ECM. i also emailed you about my brothers tune , did you get it ???
if you can tune your car with this new cam , im selling my FAST and buying a stock ECM and have you tune it
the cam in my car is the exact same . and not one person was able to tune it for me with the stock ECM. i also emailed you about my brothers tune , did you get it ??? I'll have it running in like a champ in no time.
Did not get the message -please resend it...
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,789
Likes: 8
From: Myrtle Beach SC
St. Jude Donor '05-'06
Well guys this has been a very informative post. You both make some valid points and as a PCM/ECM(I know the difference now) newbie I have been doing my homework and debates like this will only help educate me and others about the real issues involved with modding our engines. So I guess an AFPR is not the answer 
My engine has 155k miles on her so I think I may start getting ready for the BIG mod just want it to run as good as it can while it still breathes. I think for her miles she does a fine job except for that damn leaky injector 
Oh and by the way I dont mind either of you hijacking the post I love a good debate and thank you both for you responses.
My engine has 155k miles on her so I think I may start getting ready for the BIG mod just want it to run as good as it can while it still breathes. I think for her miles she does a fine job except for that damn leaky injector Oh and by the way I dont mind either of you hijacking the post I love a good debate and thank you both for you responses.
Last edited by Redeasysport; Feb 26, 2005 at 01:25 AM.
Race Director
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 14,165
Likes: 9
You know what, forget it. I typed out a big long response here but it doesn't matter. Jesse even when we are saying the same thing you argue and try to make me look stupid.
I don't need your "learning experience." Thank you I know how the computer works. Your assumptions that people don't know what they are talking about because they can word the exact same argument differently is insane.
If he wants to buy a chip from you that's fine. It's $250 thrown down the toilet AT THIS STAGE OF MODIFICATION. I have no personal stake in it, I was just trying to help a fellow forum member save a little bit of money.
I don't need your "learning experience." Thank you I know how the computer works. Your assumptions that people don't know what they are talking about because they can word the exact same argument differently is insane.
If he wants to buy a chip from you that's fine. It's $250 thrown down the toilet AT THIS STAGE OF MODIFICATION. I have no personal stake in it, I was just trying to help a fellow forum member save a little bit of money.
Last edited by Nathan Plemons; Feb 26, 2005 at 06:54 AM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Originally Posted by Nathan Plemons
You know what, forget it. I typed out a big long response here but it doesn't matter. Jesse even when we are saying the same thing you argue and try to make me look stupid.
I don't need your "learning experience." Thank you I know how the computer works. Your assumptions that people don't know what they are talking about because they can word the exact same argument differently is insane.
If he wants to buy a chip from you that's fine. It's $250 thrown down the toilet AT THIS STAGE OF MODIFICATION. I have no personal stake in it, I was just trying to help a fellow forum member save a little bit of money.
I don't need your "learning experience." Thank you I know how the computer works. Your assumptions that people don't know what they are talking about because they can word the exact same argument differently is insane.
If he wants to buy a chip from you that's fine. It's $250 thrown down the toilet AT THIS STAGE OF MODIFICATION. I have no personal stake in it, I was just trying to help a fellow forum member save a little bit of money.
Nathan,
nobody is trying to make you look stupid. Nor does anyone dislike you.
You entered the thread stating that anything that produces less than 128BLMs is a guestimate tune, but its ok to put larger injectors in that would result in basically the same thing.
In addition, all I was pointing out was there is a whole lot more to a tune than changing the injector constant that you offered to do for the gentleman- which I can assure you too would have resulted in the blms being skewed off 128.
As for the money being a waste...that is your opinion and one that you should probably keep to yourself. At the end of the day, people have alternatives. In this case he could go to another tuners that will charge 500+ dollars for an equivalent tune with no free reburns in the future OR go out and buy all the stuff that is needed to do the tuning ~750 dollars after getting a laptop - then stare at the screen for 6months to a year trying to learn all there is to learn- and still have things perhaps not right. If i was in his shoes I know what I would like to have option 1 in my choices.
