and moisture as well.(engine not coming up to operating temp)

 

sounds like a plan

 

I am talking to my bud right now!

Here is the score... some of which supercedes what I said above - damned crappy memory!

1) The 2.7 dodge is a real sludger... they will gum up the top end and sieze.

2) The 3.3 and 3.8 will spin cam bearings for no apparent reason. that will starve the top end for oil... and chaos ensues.

3) 2.0 litre neon, 30k miles, no oil changes EVER, and totally sludged up... no oil left, cost the owner $4500 to repair. this was just today!! these customers are idiots! Apparently, the $25.00 to change the oil is just too much...

4) change the oil at 3k miles for conventional, or 5k for synthetics and all will be a-ok.

How many miles on the car???

More thoughts....

The intakes are prone to leaking oil internally. The intake has a plate inside that is used to cover the internal castings. this plate leaks... causing the engine to suck in oil from the valley. This will result in huge oil consumption.

also, check under a rocker covers for sludge.

Finally, do a full fluid exchange on the transmission. They are very durable if cared for. if your truck is a 2x4, my bud has a spare gearbox for it.

That is all!

 

On these older cars,I do an engine flush every 30k before I chng the oil & filter.After Oil & filt chng,run the car about 100-200 miles and then change the O&F again.


Has worked well on all my rods.

\dbaker
Carolina

 

Damn Andy... again you impress the hell out of me with your plethora of knowledge
The truck I just bought is a 2001 Dakota R/T. It has 56k on the clock with a 5.9 Litre 360ci under the hood. This is the primary reason for the question... but it got me thinking that I don't even know the reason for sludge build up and could it be a concern on my wife's 99 cougar that just rolled 90k or my vette? The vette only has 33k on it, but I put a 160 stat in her and the oil temp hardly ever peaks over 155*. I've actually let it run at idle for a few minutes just to heat things up a bit more.

 

Let me add an oldtimer's knowledge about sludge. Unless you played around with cars in the 50's and 60's, you probably haven't seen a lot of sludge, except for the fellow with the 51 flathead. His experiance is typical.

In the early 60's, chemist and engineers had been working to identify the common causes of sludge which was usually plated out a half inch thick on the internals of most engines of the era. It seems the biggest offender in the sludge formation, was based on the crude oil used. Crudes fom all over the world had various percentages of things like phosphates and Parafine. The worst (highest parafine content) were crudes from Pennsylvania. Hence that is why Quakerstate was the largest producer of sludge. It was the parafine that was plating out on the inside of engines, like the 51 Merc above.. It became common knowledge in my day, especially when detergent oils were being introduced, to never mix oils. That is, if you used a Pennsylvania crude oil product you never changed to some other brand with lower parafine content because the differant oils and especially the new detergents, would knock this layer loose from the inside of the engine and send it through the lubrication system raising havock with moving parts and bearings.
The first "Detergent" oils was an attempt to correct this, but failed miserably. These fellows came up with detergents which contained matalic compounds in the additive packages of those oils. As it turned out, the matalic compounds were responsable for forming sludge in detergent oiled engines. When overheated from use, the matalic detergents would oxidise and form an ash. This Ash formed sludge. In mid to late 60's (I had just ordered a new 1967 Pontiac convertable), new additive packages began to appear in oil. Standard Oil, Schell and Texaco, to name a few, began to advertise that their oils were now "Ashless". Most droped the word "Detergent" completely from their lable and added or replaced it with the word "Dispersent". This change, along with an ignorant public raised the confusion factor of selecting a motor oil for the family buggy, Gradually, the oil companies eased up on their labling education attempts and since the general plublic wouldn't know motor oil from skim milk, some went back to the words that seemed to appease the ignorant masses. "Detergent" reappeared on oil cans replacing the more correct but confusing "dispersent" and "ashless".

To make a long story short (too late), the root cause of sludge is the make-up of the crudes used (ie, parafine content) and the quality of the additive package. Many of the causes listed above are catalist which permote or form sludge but there is no substitute for knowing your motor oil.

 

There have been threads in the past that suggest
sources for information about oils, what are your
recommendations about where to go and what to
believe?

I remember having this instilled into me.

At the time, I knew enough to know that the oil level
had to be up and that if oil need to be added then the
appropriate numbers needed to be on the can (no
plastic bottles back in those days). But I figured one
30W oil was as good as the next and would pour in
whatever was available that would let my fun resume.
My father saw things differently and made it clear that
as long as I was living under his roof ...

Thanks for the reminder and for the background.

.

 

In this case, thank my buddy Travis for this info!! I cannot take credit, except for typing it!!!

As for the Vette... raise that t-stat!!!!! It's just too cold. Especially for a modern LTx motor.

 

In the late 60'S and early 70's I was the engine room supervisor aboard a Nuclear Submarine and was the designated "Oil King" (every ship in the Navy has one). It was our responsibility to know the inventory of every oil tank on the ship. Order refills and supervise the on-taking of thousands of gallons of oil. While we had few engines, we had huge turbines with a hole nother set of problems. We were sent to training provided by Mobile Oil Co. I learned much from those days and this info has served me well for many decades. Unfortinately, I don't know of any unbiased source of knowledge on lubricants since I left the Navy.

As to your pholosiphy on any oil is ok,, it's alright to a point. While in the 60's our reasons for not mixing were based on the isolated use of pure cruids(Penns oil and Quakerstate really were from Pennsylvania crudes) and experimentation by the chemist with detergents,,, today crudes are pretty much mixed in tankfarms and ships holds all over the world therefore the crudes are all pretty much the same or on level footings. What makes the diferance in todays oils that we need to be concerned about when mixing, is the manufacturers additative packages. This along with synthetics and synthetic blends they may, or may not work together should be considered when adding (or even switching) oil

Additive packages consist of chemicals for anti-foaming (can you imagine oil pump pressure if your oil wipped up into a foam) ph balancing (to make up for acids from combustion coming down your cylinder walls) dispersents and anti-oxidants which to some degree put contaminants into colodial suspension so that the filter will remove them. Our engine oil relys on engine temperatures to remove any moisture by boiling it out. While coolant in the radiator remains liquid well into 230 deg range because of the pressure it's under, any moisture in the lubricant is boiled off at 212deg. So your engine should be alllowed to run that hot routinely.

If I spot any good sources of info I will post them on the forum.
Thanks

 

That's what I've always heard. I told people to stay away from the Pennzoil and QS, but I'm not sure that is still applicable in these times.

 

Sludge is formed when oil sits in a spot, usually an indent or other area that will hold fluid and not get enough oil to keep it flushed out.
Sludge is most prominent in high humidity areas, JFB is correct water, oil, dirt and high temperture causes sludge. And from the article in car magazine, I believe it can start to form in as little as 2k miles in cars that sit for long periods.

 

If I am not mistaken, I believe the boil point when water is miced with oil is alot higher. I have had water in my oil, when I was testing my race engine and a head warped and dumped water into my oil. When I turned of the engine the temp was well over 240 and when I drained the oil minutes later the oil was chocolate from the water in it.