The Cryo Debate
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,799
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
Originally Posted by Redeasysport
Makes perfect sense it increases hardness but decreases flexability.Just like freezing water...... now I wonder about the trade off.Do rear end gears need any flexability?Will they shatter easier?
In other words, the jury's stil out on this one.....
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 2
From: Little Rock Arkansas
Originally Posted by rocco16
Jeb, if you'd simply said "I have many satisfied customers of my cryogenic service." I could not possibly argue. But, some of the statements in your post are not supported by modern metallurgy.
The lesson here: Some of the people/processes promise things they cannot deliver. Some of them can deliver, and do. Just be aware that it may be difficult to differentiate between the two....and keep your eyes open.
Larry
code5coupe
The lesson here: Some of the people/processes promise things they cannot deliver. Some of them can deliver, and do. Just be aware that it may be difficult to differentiate between the two....and keep your eyes open.
Larry
code5coupe
I don't believe I contradicted myself... I stated that nodular iron cranks and engine blocks are not heat treated but are WORK HARDENED; and that by NOT having heat treatment they are full of residual stresses...THAT is what the cryogenic process relieves, I'll have to reread my post but I don't believe I said anywhere in there that "cast iron cannot be stress relieved" because that is false... We do it every day.
Additionally, out of a room full of metallurgists you will find some that are firm, researched believers in the process and you'll find others that poo-poo it every chance they get because of their experiences early in the infancy of cryo-processing. We're a member of ASM International and take part with our equipment mfg in their Cryogenic Technology Group that studies new applications and materials for use in their Heat Treater's Guide (which incidentally lists cryogenic processing as a recommended second process on almost ALL ferrous metals and some non-ferrous metals for stress relief). I deal with metallurgist's, engineers, and university professor's routinely through the business for some sort of research or another and can tell you not a single one has the same opinion on ANYTHING. As Dr. William Bryson wrote in one of his articles on industrial cryogenic processing: "Having worked with cryogenics, having studied it from a metallurgical aspect, and having taught and performed it since the mid-1960's, I still don't have all the answers."
So, I deal with confusion every day and will be the first to admit that it doesn't work on everything nor is it a band-aid for poor material... But, Larry, like you said: "I have many satisfied customers of my cryogenic service." And these include businesses and entities that are probably familar to most people on this board. I usually just invite someone to try it on something they CAN quantify; if they do not see a positive result I'll give them a refund...So far I haven't had too; of course I usually KNOW by material if they'll see a gain, anyway.
-Jeb
Drifting
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,536
Likes: 0
From: Bristol CT
Semi Related
Freezing gas prices
May 25, 2005, 11:11 PM EDT Freezing gas prices
David Hutchinson with his cryogenically enhanced hybrid Honda.
ALI MEYER REPORTING
Americans guzzle 65 billion gallons of fuel a year and lately we have been paying a pretty penny at the pump. NewsChannel 4 has done reports in the past on how to get the most out of your gas. Now we introduce you to a new way to save on those gasoline dollars.
There is a man who fills up his tank once every two months. One tank of gas, literally, lasts him two months. He is freezing the price of gas by freezing something else.
People complain about the price of gas and we are all spending dearly to stay on the road these days. The money we spend on gas seems to burn up faster than the fuel.
While there may be little rhyme or reason to why the prices are on a perpetual roller-coaster, there is one man who has found a way to freeze them in their tracks, literally.
David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.
David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.”
Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.
A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.
David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd” engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.”
A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.
“It's just a very efficient vehicle.” Hutchison says,
Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.
Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.
David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.”
Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer.
May 25, 2005, 11:11 PM EDT Freezing gas prices
David Hutchinson with his cryogenically enhanced hybrid Honda.
ALI MEYER REPORTING
Americans guzzle 65 billion gallons of fuel a year and lately we have been paying a pretty penny at the pump. NewsChannel 4 has done reports in the past on how to get the most out of your gas. Now we introduce you to a new way to save on those gasoline dollars.
There is a man who fills up his tank once every two months. One tank of gas, literally, lasts him two months. He is freezing the price of gas by freezing something else.
People complain about the price of gas and we are all spending dearly to stay on the road these days. The money we spend on gas seems to burn up faster than the fuel.
While there may be little rhyme or reason to why the prices are on a perpetual roller-coaster, there is one man who has found a way to freeze them in their tracks, literally.
David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.
David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.”
Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.
A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.
David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd” engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.”
A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.
“It's just a very efficient vehicle.” Hutchison says,
Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.
Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.
David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.”
Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 2
From: Little Rock Arkansas
That is a TOTAL BULLSH*T article...It's been going around for awhile and I don't know the legitimacy of the article but it's statements like these that give the industry a TERRIBLE name! While there are a few facts at its root (things that people mildly familiar with the process would know) the rest is pure fabrication...
-Jeb
-Jeb
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,348
Likes: 233
From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
Jeb is absolutely right on that article, and I applaude him for his stance.
Articles like that make the cryo process look like it's being promoted by a bunch of charlatans.
As with any remarkable new process, it is just being given all kinds of false attributes. Cryo IS a viable process for specific applications and WILL result in certain changes in certain metals. You just have to be sure of the application.
Since, as Jeb stated, even knowledgable metallugists don't agree on the effectiveness of cryo, it is up to you...the consumer...to do your due dillegence. Jeb can probably advise you well.
Larry
code5coupe
Articles like that make the cryo process look like it's being promoted by a bunch of charlatans.
As with any remarkable new process, it is just being given all kinds of false attributes. Cryo IS a viable process for specific applications and WILL result in certain changes in certain metals. You just have to be sure of the application.
Since, as Jeb stated, even knowledgable metallugists don't agree on the effectiveness of cryo, it is up to you...the consumer...to do your due dillegence. Jeb can probably advise you well.
Larry
code5coupe
Last edited by rocco16; Dec 6, 2005 at 05:36 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 46,295
Likes: 2,596
From: Northern, VA
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Originally Posted by Ramanstud
yeah well a buddy's friend of mine knows a guy who's uncle had a 200 mpg carburator in an old cadillac.
I know, that's a mighty "cold" statement.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 2
From: Little Rock Arkansas
Originally Posted by Ramanstud
yeah well a buddy's friend of mine knows a guy who's uncle had a 200 mpg carburator in an old cadillac.
I don't know who this guy is (I've a mind to track down the story through Snopes or someone else) but if he's for real he needs a serious azz-kicking from everone in the cryo-industry!
-Jeb
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
I talked to a doctorate in material science yesterday that had several positive things to say about using "near 0" treatment on steels.. Even low carbon steels could benifit by moving any avaiable austinite to marsinite.. He said he could definately see an advantage in the case hardend gears of a rear end where the very thin layer is almost identical to tool steel.
He said he couln'd see any advantages to do non-ferrite materials.
This guy is damn smart.. He and a group of maybe 5 others developmed small grain tungsten to act like depleted uranium for armor pearcing in military applications.. They wehre able to make the tungsten slip at edges in a self sharpening way instead of mashing when they hit the target.
Material science has to be one of my weakest subjects.
He said he couln'd see any advantages to do non-ferrite materials.
This guy is damn smart.. He and a group of maybe 5 others developmed small grain tungsten to act like depleted uranium for armor pearcing in military applications.. They wehre able to make the tungsten slip at edges in a self sharpening way instead of mashing when they hit the target.
Material science has to be one of my weakest subjects.
