steve40th

Not to steal the thread, but anyone have flow numbers for CNC heads, http://cncheads.com/system/system1.htm, LT1 ?
I always thought AFR were much higher quality. Now I wonder

Nathan Plemons

So basically you're saying that in buying AFR products people are largely buying a name and they may or may not actually be buying a product of better quality?

Hmm... seems like there's one member here who completely jumped me for saying something like that and is such making it a point to be a complete *** in any thread with which I have offered my input.

d48mclain

I have flow sheets on AFR 210 flowed w/o a pipe and they flow 247 intake at both .550 and .600 with the exhaust flowing 209/213 respectively at the same height.

Obviously there are a lot of shades of gray but give me superior intake flow and good exhaust flow or it reversed anyday.

I'm very happy with my ported TFS but it also too two different porting sessions and two completely different sets of valves to get them to where I was happy with them.

Again.....I'd do ported stock casting unless you really want to kill the ball. Made 445 rwhp with a set of Lloyds olders ported castings that flow much less that what he's doing now.

bacardioil

nathan
you are so right. i had a new set of afr lt4 195's this year. when i heard about this problem i called afr about this, they would not tell me i wouldnt have the oil problem. they agreeded to take the heads back and return my money in full. i then call harold at port pros in tx. harold is right now building me a lt4 s/c engine with lt4 heads. the heads flow w/t 292 on the intake and 210 on the exh. this is the best thing i ever did is go to port pros in tx. and he got the engine build from me also. by the end of the week it will be ready to ship after engine is dynoed. harold worked for some of the top engine builders in the country before opening his own shop. hes one stright up guy. he also dose all the head work for the viper dealers in the auston area. this guy knows his sh**.
regards gene

Vetracr

I Installed a set of AFR 190cc 2.05/1.60 runners on my L-98 race engine. They really boosted the power but I had no end of grief trying to control oil in the valve covers. I had to build a sophisticated breather and drain back system to get the oil out of the valve covers. The problem is that the oil drain back passages on the AFR head are quite a bit higher up than on the stock heads. The oil pools in the valve cover below the drain back passages and gets thrown around by the valve train. I had to run aeroquiop drain lines from the valve covers to the pan. I'm not sure I'd buy another set unless they've solved that problem. Quality and performance are there but there are alternatives.


Larry

STL94LT1

I'm running their heads. Don't have flow #'s, but the car performs really well.

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

Guys...

We have touched on this subject numerous times but inevidably a new thread comes up and it seems we must once again take the time to clear things up. The oil level in our current castings is higher than most due to extra material (aluminum) in the valley of the head. It does NOT cause additional oil consumption because the oil level is still very much below the top of the guide seals...there are thousands (literally) of AFR customers running around without oil consumption issues, all of whom are running the same type of casting. It can be an inconvenience if you run a mechanical valvetrain and have to remove the valve covers occassionally to adjust them....with some heads oil will overflow a little over the top....others the oil level is just below. The difference simpy is how much material is there when it came out of the mold....castings will vary slightly from one head to the next, one of the reasons a fully CNC ported head is a good move assuming the porting program is worth it's salt.

On to the better news....I would also like to confirm that we are in fact about to release a complete re-design on our entire 23' Chevy line. We are calling it the Eliminator line and it will address ALL the issues typically found on this board (oil return, casting issues, lead times, etc.) as well as raise the bar in 23' performance to all new levels by infusing some technology brought to us with the Gen III stuff (LS program) as well as a dramatic improvement in flow numbers, with the focus of the redesign concentrating on strong low and midlift flow, early "peak" numbers, and small cross sectional area. This is a complete "clean sheet of paper" approach....castings, hardware, port designs....everything has been optimized and improved.

I'm not at liberty just yet to discuss actual flow figures, but suffice to say we have worked long and hard at producing a 23' head that is the most efficient piece we have ever tested when comparing flow numbers and cross sectional area (the goal being high airspeed without restricting volume). Our new 195 "street" package will flow in the 280-290 CFM range @ .600 lift (with a 1205 Felpro entrance and a 2.05 valve)....our new 195 "Comp" package will flow in the neighborhood of 300 CFM's at the same lift with a larger 1206 entrance and a 2.08 valve (unheard of numbers in such a small head....our new Comp 195 outflows our current 210 cc offering). The low and midlift flow also shows solid gains as well over our current offerings and the exhaust ports have also been dramatically improved and refined (230+ CFM in our Comp 195).

Other big news with this product is the switch to lighter 8 mm valves and lighter springs and retainers which have been proving themselves in the Gen III LS market for years. Valve float will be minimized and much higher RPM's will be able to be attained with both the lighter valvetrain components and of course complimented by the additional airflow the new designs will provide.

The first heads to be available will be our 180 and 195 versions....the larger 200cc+ race heads are currently being developed and will trail the release of the street stuff by a couple of months at least. Look to see some of the new street heads trickling in to dealers and private individuals in the next two months or so. There will also be alot of magazine tests in the future as well....they have been chomping at the bit to try these ever since we released the information to them some time ago.

I dont want to hijack this thread so please dont ask a lot of questions just yet....I just wanted to again clear up a myth concerning our current product and also share whats on the near term horizon concerning AFR so anyone in the market for heads would have this info to consider. I'm confident our entire Eliminator line will push the envelope of "bolt on" 23 degree performance to all new levels....and if you don't believe the "hype", sit back and keep an eye out for the dyno and track results.....you won't be disappointed.

Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / Product Design Mgr.
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109

Pete K

Tony, would you please start a new thread for discussion? I do not want to hijack it either. If you cannot start one yet, please do when you are at liberty to go into details. I would be interested in these heads and would likely secure a spot in line when the time comes. Thanks!

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

I will be doing so in the next few weeks....at that point in time we will also be able to take orders and provide more information on the new program....we are all pretty excited about it here.

And just to clarify, our reputation over the years has certainly been earned....you don't get one without earning it (Pete...this isn't addressed at you BTW).

The new stuff about to be released will continue to cement and enforce that we are serious about staying on top and our goal is to provide you guys with a killer "bolt on" out of the box cylinder head.

More info coming soon...

Tony

Nathan Plemons

Would these new heads be designed to provide the flow that you are suggesting with an LT1 intake or would it require the raised ports of the LT4?

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

Our 180 version will take the LT1 intake.....the street 195 (with the smaller entrance) could go either way, and the Comp 195 would be better suited to the larger LT4 intake, or a ported LT1 which I have heard some people actually prefer. Our larger versions to be offered down the road (in our new Eliminator line) would naturally accept the LT4 or ported LT1 intakes.

Steve85

Tony,
Thanks for your response. First off, this issue does not come up that often, especially compared to the amount of times your heads are promoted here. I tried to be pretty clear not to say that AFR’s have oil consumption issues. Someone asked about a puddle issue and I pointed out the same things you did. The deep pockets and no channel referred to are a result of the additional casting material you spoke of. “Puddle” and “high level” I think, are interchangeable terms in the context of this thread. The return issues and higher oil level are not a myth. It seems logical that if enough oil was trapped, in conjunction with the return issues on some heads, that it could lead to consumption. And if someone is experiencing consumption with AFR heads tha appears to be valve related this may be something worth checking. It does not imply that AFR heads, in general, suffer from this. I hope you understand that the purpose was to help someone track down a problem he mentioned and give a visual aid to help him understand why this comes up in the first place. It certainly was not to spread myths about AFR heads. There are threads that have talked about the bigger issues and AFR is addressing them.

Anyway, since I am in the market for new heads I’m glad we got you in here maybe even a little sooner than you wanted. I will hold off to see what you have to offer in the near future, sounds promising. I did not include a pic of AFR heads because they are currently on my car.
.

And...to SK, the original poster, I apologize as I lost track of what this thread was about. In looking for it, I actually skipped over it looking for an AFR thread started by Hot Rod 90. I thought there were two going, one about performance (yours)and one about the "puddling" (Hot Rod). Sorry about that. I guess it got Tony in here anyway. So to answer your question, hold off a little while, it looks like some very nice heads are on the way!

Nathan Plemons

If you're not at liberty to say I understand but I was curious if you had any idea about pricing of the new heads?

If the heads flow as well as you suggest that they are going to it might be just the ticket I would need to get the 400 RWHP that I want out of my hot cam setup. I really want to get 400 RWHP in a 350 with that stick just because everybody says it can't be done. I'm already using 1.7 rockers to exploit the extra flow capabilites of my heads now with very good results.

Red_Vette_93

Nathan, have you looked into the Dart heads on Summit Racing? I was browsing thru there the other day & they seem like they have some good prices on sets of heads. I was wondering what your opinion was about buying a set of these as to spending say $1700 to have my LT1 heads done.
sorry to jump the thread just trying to gather up some info before I delve into my motor. I plan on having heads done or buy new, headers, hot cam, electric WP, TC, magnaflows, 1.6 RR.

Thanks, Jim

jburnett

Tony, thanks for coming on here so I didn't have to... I had a long discussion with Tony and looked at some of his new Eliminator line at SEMA back in November. Very nice stuff and every issue I had ever had with an AFR head (which I must admit were relatively minor but frustrating) has been addressed. There has NEVER (to my knowledge) been an oil CONSUMPTION problem with AFR's heads; a LEAKAGE problem perhaps, but not consumption. The oil drainback issues (particularly in the LTx castings) simply caused valve cover gasket leaks, all easily addressed by running a ball mill around the lower perimeter of the valve cover rail... Something AFR has done in their redesign.

They have completely retooled their facility and spent the last 24 mos. on redesign and R&D. I've always had good luck with their heads even when I had to perform a little extra work on them, that's largely just part of building a serious engine. I look at it this way: this is a company that knew it had some minor issues, and took the initiative in not only correcting the issues but moving forward to make a better overall product. Hell, they could've just stayed with the current stuff and made money for years to come; but they didn't they moved forward.
-Jeb
PS- Nathan, AFR heads are half-again as heavy as stock castings because instead of 1/2"-5/8" deck thickness they have a 3/4" deck as well as additional material in the walls of the ports for additional metal removal.

Nathan Plemons

Maybe so and it's possible that they perform very well. It's also very possible that the pair of heads that I got a hold of were a complete fluke. What bothered me were not the problems so much as the way it was handled. It was more of a "ssshhh, keep quiet" response as opposed to a "oh **** how did that happen and how should we make it right?" response.

They weren't even my heads so it really wasn't my problem either way. It just struck me as a little odd that such a big name would have a defect like those did, and then rather than try to investigate it or see what could be done I was essentially told to shut up.

I firmly believe that ANY company can and does make mistakes. What seperates a good company from the rest is how those mistakes are handled. I felt like AFR's response to my findings was less than optimal. Again at that though, I fully understand that this might not be AFR's policy, it might have been somebody who was having a particularly bad day.

You'll notice I did not tell Tom to get 'ed and his heads were junk. I'm interested in them because from what it sounds like some of the concerns that people have had are being addressed. I'm not going to let one person's actions allow me to completely rule out a company as an option, but I will have to approach any dealings with extreme caution and ask enough questions first to ensure that it will go smoothly.

jburnett

Dude...You and I are on the same page and I agree with you on everything you said above. I've never had a problem with AFR that was NOT addressed in a respectful and helpful manner; but I know some (including you) that have. There is no excuse for that. But the fact remains that all-in-all they're a very good company that makes a very nice product and the fact that they're working to make improvements drives that point home to me.

I know a lot of people on here started an AFR vs. Brodix war a year or so ago... Well, I LIVE in Arkansas, about 2 hours from Mena where Brodix is located. I've known Brotherton and Dix for quite awhile. I cryo-treat a lot of their tooling and used A LOT of their products when I worked at the machine shop. I've seen crap come out of their that I wouldn't use for a boat anchor! About 8-10 years ago they had many of the same issues that AFR is addressing and had some SERIOUS QC problems. They addressed all of their problems, restructured the way they do business, and their QC is almost as good as Edelbrock's (a QC model if there ever was one). I believe the same thing is taking effect at AFR, and it's a stellar thing. My advice before starting this war was: "know EVERYTHING about the company and it's issues before you make a judgement."
-Jeb

89corvetteken

I recently whent through the process of purchasing AFR's (195) for my new 383.I purchased them becuse their flow numbers were hard to beat.
Because I had read on this forum concerns over quality I decided to take them to my engine builder who does nothing but race motors to have him break them down and check spring heights vacum test the seats etc.I should have saved my money because he found nothing wrong.He even comented that they were some of the better heads he has seen come through his shop.I must admit the business end of the heads were a work of art with the 100% CNC.
My builder hapened to have a set of Edelbrock in his shop at the same time and He let me set them side by side.I was amazed at how well built the AFR looked next to the Edelbrock.
I will admit I have had an oil leak on one side but I have cheap gaskets,
will replace with rubber in Spring.
I can only speak for my combo but they work great and pull to no end.

No Go

I have a set of the old SBC style 210's. As cast they flowed just what their website states...almost equal to my CNC Cylinder Head ported LT4 castings! Yes old style vs LTX style, but interesting...

I also run the AFR's on a drag/street Nova so oil pooling will probably never be an issue...no oil consumption problems either. Quite happy!