Notices
C4 Tech/Performance L98 Corvette and LT1 Corvette Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine

2500 lb C4

 
Old 06-08-2006, 12:28 AM
  #1  
NitrousSam
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
Thread Starter
 
NitrousSam's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Vernon OH
Posts: 2,951
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default 2500 lb C4

I was talking with an owner of a C4 who is a road racer and he tells me that there are many of C4 race cars that weigh 2500 lbs or less (without driver). Does anyone have a C4 race car that is this light? If so I would really like to exchange e-mails or talk by phone.
NitrousSam is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 12:50 AM
  #2  
Slalom4me
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: Edmonton AB
Posts: 8,818
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Perhaps post in AutoX and RR for additional & faster response.

With more fuel, more braking, big front rubber, coolers, accumulators,
plumbing, sway bars, NASCAR door bars left & maybe right and so on,
my vote is that a road race C4 would weigh more than a drag car.

Or are we talking about tube frame 'funny' cars?

.
Slalom4me is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 12:55 AM
  #3  
NitrousSam
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
Thread Starter
 
NitrousSam's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Vernon OH
Posts: 2,951
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Slalom4me
Perhaps post in AutoX and RR for additional & faster response.

With more fuel, more braking, big front rubber, coolers, accumulators,
plumbing, sway bars, NASCAR door bars left & maybe right and so on,
my vote is that a road race C4 would weigh more than a drag car.

Or are we talking about tube frame 'funny' cars?

.
I have not seen an AutoX or RR section. Great idea though. Thanks!
I was told about an actual street driven C4 that has all lexan, carbon fiber body panels, skinned interior, lexan roof skin and so on that weighed just a touch over 2500 lbs also. This got my brain thinking about other weight reduction ideas and I hadn't realized that 2500 lbs has been obtained by more than a handful of people but it sounds like it has which is exciting.
NitrousSam is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 01:01 AM
  #4  
Slalom4me
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: Edmonton AB
Posts: 8,818
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Guldstrand made a custom-bodied C4. I think it was called
the GS 90? All carbon fibre body. Street car with full, fancy
interior IIRC. It would have been light but I don't think this
was the 2500# car. I don't know if the photographer just
got lucky with the angles or if it was truely as downright
attractive as I recall.

There was a feature in one of the Corvette magazines several
years ago. I could look it up but this would take a while.

.
Slalom4me is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 02:49 AM
  #5  
irfrugus
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Barbara CA
Posts: 101
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

the gs90 wieghs 3490lbs
irfrugus is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 03:13 AM
  #6  
bill mcdonald
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,354
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by NitrousSam
I have not seen an AutoX or RR section. Great idea though. Thanks!
I was told about an actual street driven C4 that has all lexan, carbon fiber body panels, skinned interior, lexan roof skin and so on that weighed just a touch over 2500 lbs also. This got my brain thinking about other weight reduction ideas and I hadn't realized that 2500 lbs has been obtained by more than a handful of people but it sounds like it has which is exciting.
on a stock chassis?

Anyone know what a stripped down C4 chassis weighs?
bill mcdonald is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 03:43 AM
  #7  
cuisinartvette
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Valencia Ca.
Posts: 67,521
Thanked 1,071 Times in 984 Posts
St. Jude Donor '05
Default

I have not seen an AutoX or RR section
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23

Last edited by cuisinartvette; 06-08-2006 at 03:52 AM.
cuisinartvette is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 07:29 PM
  #8  
DanZ51
CF Senior Member
 
DanZ51's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Wallingford Vermont
Posts: 1,118
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

IIRC, didn't the Chevy Skunk Works boys churn out a experimental ZR1 called the "Snake Skinner" that was a specially prepped Vette that weighed a good amount less than the production version? Maybe somebody still has the info and the actual weight.

Too bad Chevy did go through with a few light-weight models; at least with a major delete package (no radio, electric windows, AC), alittle carbon fiber, maybe a plexiglass window.....
DanZ51 is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 07:55 PM
  #9  
bill mcdonald
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,354
Thanked 25 Times in 25 Posts
Default

here is a bunch of stuff I found on it.

The first step in building a ZR1-SS was to consign several heavy accessories to the scrap heap. First to go was the air conditioning and the Delco-Bose sound system followed by the low tire pressure warning system and the spare tire. Lighter, base-level, manually-adjustable, cloth seats were substituted for the ZR1’s leather, powered units. Stock wheels were pitched for cast magnesium Dymags. A standard flywheel replaced the heavier dual-mass unit and a magnesium bell housing was used instead of the stocker. At this point, the car weighed about 250 pounds less.

Once “King Light” had been “Jenny Craiged”; its LT5 was put on steroids. This was done in two phases. The first advanced the existing engine’s camshafts slightly, removed the catalysts and fitted the car with Walker Dyno Max racing mufflers. Horsepower went up to about 405.



This was the Snake Skinner when Heinricy gave me the almost-as-good-as-sex demo at a Midwest testing venue two days after our lunch meeting. However, more work was to be done, so I agreed to secrecy back then in exchange for a full Vette road test six months later. Fast forward to May 1991…



Late spring afternoons at the GM Desert Proving Ground (DPG) in Mesa, Arizona are always pleasant. The days are longer, but temperature is still tolerable. Sunsets on the Superstition Mountains to the east are an exquisite sight. The ZR1-SS, another 100 pounds lighter and with the “phase two” motor was parked at the edge of DPG’s acceleration test strip sitting for photos. It seemed a bit weird (maybe it was those Superstition Mountains, eh?) shooting this car. It was as if its Royal Badness, King Light, didn’t “like” being parked…“Snake Skinners are runners not lookers.” was the message. It’s white paint was a sinister contrast, too, as this car was anything but virginal.



The ZR1-SS had been trucked out to Mesa for the winter so Corvette Project Coordinator, Scott Leon, and his crew could finish the car. Its backlight had been replaced with plexiglass in an aluminum frame. The stock hood had been switched for a light-weight, aftermarket, Kevlar unit from Toledo Pro fiberglass. The factory headlight assemblies were nixed and their doors fixed in place. “Mini-Quad” headlights and turn signal units, both from the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, were installed where the stock turn signals and fog lights usually go. The rear compartment doors behind the seats were replaced with a Lexan panel.



The engine was now a special unit supplied by the manufacturer of the LT5, the MerCruiser Division of Brunswick Marine Power. All modifications were aimed at increasing airflow. The cylinder heads were ported and polished then fitted with more aggressive camshafts. The secondary throttle plate hardware was discarded and the injector housings between the intake plenum and the heads were siamesed. The plenum’s outlets were siamesed to match and its interior was modified for increased volume and improved airflow. Lastly the sizes of the throttle body’s two main barrels were increased.



The engine’s lower end is plenty strong and was run as is. Special assembly procedures were unnecessary as LT5s are essentially hand-built engines already.



After the installation of the new motor, four-into-one, tuned headers from Morrison Motorsports were added and the exhaust system center resonator was removed. The ECM software was updated to work with the new motor and its rev limit was raised to 7500 rpm. After this round of engine tweaks, the Snake Skinner had a 425 horsepower punch.

In addition to the engine modifications, the stock 3.54:1 rear gears were exchanged for a set of 3.91s. S-Compound, Goodyear ZR Eagle tires were fitted to the Dymag wheels and the software used by the ride-adaptive shock absorbers of the FX3 Selective Ride and Handling Package was altered slightly. Otherwise the ZR1 suspension and brakes were left alone. Lastly, the stock fuel tank was replaced with a unit having slightly more capacity and special baffling to prevent starvation at low fuel levels.



Scott Leon, a true Corvette enthusiast in that he pays attention to ascetics as well as performance, felt the car needed a couple of class touches. He installed four-louver fender vents from the Chevrolet Raceshop’s Corvette Aero Kit and he added a set of 1992 LT1 exhaust outlets.



The other reason we were on the acceleration strip at sunset that evening in May was to get some good air for a few quarter mile passes. One thing about King Light is that with 3130 pounds, 425 horsepower, 3.91 gears and street tires, launching is a trick. I made six passes and still couldn’t get it right…but I had a hell of a lot of fun!

Fire up the ZR1-SS and it’s immediately apparent that this is not a car for the faint-of-heart. It’s exhaust note is assertive, the idle has a race motor lope and the throttle response is so crisp as to be almost too quick. Nice guys don’t drive cars like this. As I sat waiting for the engine to warm, the car’s sound and feel had me daydreaming…

Somehow, we’ve gotten away from one aspect of the Corvette mystique: raw-edged, hard-to-handle power. Maybe there should be a ZR1-SS, i.e.: A Corvette for hardasses. Just maybe Chevrolet’s “deproliferation movement” has gone too far towards techno-wizardry and mandatory option packages. Between 1985 and 1990, Corvette sales dropped 11,000 units and ‘91 may prove to be the worst sales year in two decades. Something needs to be done. Maybe we need to go back to a lot of choices in Corvettes…something for everyone: those who want the look, but can afford little more; those who want the performance, but can afford little more; and those who want it all. This daydreaming stuff was getting too complicated.



Anyway, sitting there in the Snake Skinner listening to the rumbling LT5 was definitely a deja vu: I closed my eyes for a second and could see, almost touch, the thundering L88 that a friend owned back in 1969…



I rolled up to the start line, brought the revs up to 2500 then, sidestepped the clutch. Yo! What a rush. The beefed-up motor revs very quickly producing plenty of wheelspin if you’re not ready. Right away you gotta lift a bit. In a fraction of a second; I banged the rev limiter at the top of first gear. I shut off right there, mashed the brakes, then backed into the start line again.



The lag of the digital tach was such that, in first gear, to shift at 7400 you must do it when you see 6200. The one-two shift comes so quick ( I walked the tire marks and found the gap about 60 feet out) that, on the first two runs, reacting a bit slow; I tagged the limiter both times. The next four, I managed to get it right.



Even then, making a hard pass in the Snake Skinner depends on launching with a careful balance of rpm, wheel spin and shift point. But, hey, you gotta grab hold of that snake before you can skin it!



My best, though only an average performance, was 12.36/116.8. With darkness approaching, I put Scott Leon in to see if one who’d driven the car a lot could do better. He did…to the tune of 12.22/118.6. Bottom line: this car is quite nasty in a straight line.



That morning we used this same strip and DPG’s vehicle dynamics pad for some additional tests. On the skid pad, the car, expectedly, due to its weight, sticks well. We averaged 1.01g and I felt the car could have done even better, but a byproduct of the King Light diet plan was increased ride height. A higher center of gravity may have affected skid pad performance a bit. The only modification not performed in time for our test was the installation of different springs that would set it to the proper level.



In the slalom, again, light weight was an advantage. Additionally, the car was balanced with less understeer. This slight looseness is a plus in the slalom. Lastly, the car felt crisper in the constant, transitional handling situations characteristic of slaloms. This was partly due to less weight and the better response of the S-tires.



Not all of my impression of this car came in the controlled, proving ground environment. The next day, Scott Leon and I took it on a 75 mile ride and drive over public roads. The first part went up Arizona State Highway 88 into the Canyon and Apache Lakes area northeast of Mesa in the Tonto National Forrest. It’s a great road loaded with plenty of twisties linked to short straights mixed in with elevation changes.



Doing AZ88 in the Snake Skinner was a sporting driver’s delight! The car’s crispness in transitions and more neutral balance combined with good predictability to make it easy to drive near the limit. On the short straights, power and gearing had it a rocket ship. In fact, squeeze the gas a bit too soon or too hard exiting a turn–you got wheelspin and power oversteer, but then, that’s what driving a real fast Corvette is supposed to be: a bit of a challenge that…separates the real Corvette drivers from persons with just big wallets.



The asphalt part of Highway 88 ends at a little village called Tortilla Flat that’s about 30 miles northeast of the Grounds. There is a small restaurant and bar in Tortilla Flat whose main claims to fame are walls papered with dollar bills (according to local history, the place burned down a few years back–must have been a hell of an expensive fire!) along with cold lemonade and some of the best chili anywhere. Scott Leon, a veteran of this establishment, described it, “Hey, you guys from L.A.…most of the chili you’ve eaten comes out of a can and is seasoned with smog. This stuff…this stuff, here, is chili for serious professionals!” Indeed, it was chili…only more so.



After lunch, we drove into Mesa to see what the Snake Skinner was like in a more civilized setting and it proved to be reasonably friendly. Throttle response and acceleration were great from stoplight-to-stoplight and in passing. The exhaust note was not loud enough to be annoying or attract the attention of the local constabulary. I like cloth seats over leather in warm weather. The car never ran hot and drivability was generally quite good. On the downside, I wish Heinricy had left the stereo–doesn’t have to be a Bose (which I dislike anyway) just a standard Delco-Electronics unit will do. When you can’t drive fast; you need rock'n'roll to keep you occupied. The lack of air conditioning was not a big problem. Most of the time the windows were down. In the heaviest traffic, however, I found myself wishing the current platform had floor vents–you know those things you pulled in an old big block car when your feet got hot? Lastly, the plexiglass backlight had about as many distortions as the does the copy you read in other Corvette magazines. Seriously, in traffic, you had to look carefully–you could see everything, it just looked a bit weird sometimes.



After reading all this Snake Skinner stuff, your inevitable question must be: will Chevrolet go to production with a Corvette like this? If the Dodge Viper falls on its face, though we may see some weight reduction; chances of a lightened-up, de-contented, high-horsepower car being built are nil.



If Viper proves to be a credible player in the high-sports market, we just might see a ZR1-SS, but a factory unit would have to address some of the criticisms discussed above. Right now, this is all speculation. There’s been no official word and there probably won’t be for a while. In the meantime, John Heinricy and the Corvette Group will sit back, watch Chrysler and test their nasty Snake Skinner.



After our evaluation, the the car returned to Detroit to begin a summer-long test regimen. Just before deadline for this article, a friend in the Corvette Group, Jim Ingle, called to discuss results of some testing he’d done. Now Jim, “Jingles” to those who know him well, is a Development Engineer who’s specialty is test driving. On a drag strip, he is no doubt the fastest production Corvette driver. Using the acceleration strip at the Milford Proving Ground, which has better bite than does DPG’s, and on a 60° day, he turned a 12.04 at 122.2 in the Snake Skinner. Damn! That’s a majorly bad car!





Advantage: Chevrolet.

Vehicle specifications and test data



Base price: $32.455 Price as tested: n/a As tested includes: Standard equipment plus: ZR1 Special Performance Package ($31683) consisting of 5.7L dohc V8, 315/35ZR17 rear tires, 11x17 aluminum rear wheels, HD brake system, electronic air conditioning, special bodywork, selective ride and handling package, 6-way power leather adjustable sport seats, low tire pressure warning system, Delco-Bose sound system. The following items were then deleted: air conditioning, 6-way leather seats, low tire pressure warning system, Delco-Bose sound system.

Wheel base: 96.2 in.
Curb weight: 3130 lbs Test Weight: 3305 lbs.
Engine: 5.727-liter, dohc V8, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection.
Bore x stroke: 99.0 x 93.0 mm compression ratio: 11.0:1


Power: (s.1) [email protected] rpm, est.

Torque: (s.1) 385ft/[email protected] rpm, est.
(s.2) [email protected] rpm, est. (s.2) 400ft/[email protected] rpm, est.
Maximum engine speed: 7500 rpm.
Transmission: six- speed manual Ratios: 2.68, 1.80, 1.31, 1.00, 0.75, 0.50
Rear axle ratio: 3.90:1 w. limited slip differential
Suspension ft/rr: control arms, transverse leaf spring, anti-roll bar, ride- adaptive shocks/control arms with lateral links, transverse leaf spring, antiroll bar, ride-adaptive shocks
Wheels ft/rr: Dymag cast magnesium 9.5x17”/Dymag cast magnesium 11x17”.
Tires ft/rr: Goodyear 275/40ZR17, S-compound shaved/Goodyear 315/35ZR17, S-compound, shaved.
Steering: rack and pinion w. power assist
Steering ratio: 15.6:1 Turns, lock-to-lock: 2.25
Brakes: four-wheel disc w. power assist and ABS
Acceleration, 0-60: 3.87 sec. 1/4 mile: 12.04 sec. /122.2 mph
Lateral acceleration: 1.01g
Braking, 80-0 and 60-0 at impending lock-up: 228 ft. and 126 ft.
Slalom speed, 700 ft.: 65.8 mph.
Top speed: (w. s.1 engine) 185 mph, observed.
(w. s.2 engine) 190 mph, estimated.
MPG, EPA combination: n/a MPG, observed: n/a
Fuel capacity: 22 gal.
bill mcdonald is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 07:58 PM
  #10  
Jeffvette
CF Senior Member
 
Jeffvette's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2000
Location: No more yankee my wankee, the Donger is tired!
Posts: 17,103
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

2,500 lbs is tough to do if you want to keep some comforts. Main thing is when you strip that far down and race you will weld a cage back in which adds most of the weight back.

The snake skinner was stripped and weighed in around 2,800 lbs. With the heavier LT5 in it.
Jeffvette is offline  
Old 06-08-2006, 09:06 PM
  #11  
Vetracr
CF Senior Member
 
Vetracr's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Posts: 590
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

2500# is pushing it quite a bit. You'd be able to get there though with a gutted interior, no A/C, radio or emissions, gutted Carbon fiber doors and hood, Lexan front and rear windows. My SCCA ITE C4 weighed 3000# with a cage but without the carbion fiber and lexan. At that weight it sure won't be street drivable.

Larry
Vetracr is offline  
Old 06-09-2006, 03:11 AM
  #12  
Dan Parker '96
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jun 2001
Location: Lake Ozark MO
Posts: 1,995
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

2500# C-4. Never.
Dan Parker '96 is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 12:48 AM
  #13  
NitrousSam
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
Thread Starter
 
NitrousSam's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Vernon OH
Posts: 2,951
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Dan Parker '96
2500# C-4. Never.
I am curious why you say NEVER? All CF body panels, no accesseries, all lexan windows, gut the interior, roof skin, no cage, all aluminum engine, Bogart or Weld Aluma Star wheels, titanium wheel studs and nuts, carbon brakes, titanium and aluminum fasteners, carbon fiber dash skin...with this thought process I find it hard to believe that 2500 lbs is not possible in a fully gutted car...call me crazy
NitrousSam is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:28 AM
  #14  
comp
CF Senior Member
 
comp's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: eville in
Posts: 88,399
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

bill ,,good read
comp is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:40 AM
  #15  
Fubar569
CF Senior Member
 
Fubar569's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2004
Location: Bradford Pa
Posts: 859
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

the 84's curb weight was 3100 & change....so i'd think it could be attained using an earlylow option C4 and getting it on a basic diet of lightweight parts and of course using an all aluminum motor with lightweight components...
Fubar569 is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 02:07 AM
  #16  
89Corvette6spdFX3
CF Senior Member
 
89Corvette6spdFX3's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,863
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Any pics of that ZR1?
89Corvette6spdFX3 is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 02:14 AM
  #17  
Slalom4me
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: Edmonton AB
Posts: 8,818
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

As a one-off street racer that didn't need to comply with
someone's rules, perhaps. But road racers are comparatively
heavy. (See my first post at the top for the reasons why.)

For instance, I just happened to be looking at specs for the
Viper Competition Coupe - curb weight: 3190. I'm not sure
if LG Motorsports has posted the wgt of their C6 but I expect
it is up there. David Farmer might be willing to offer some
insight.

It would be interesting to hear from JeffyVette about how much
his open road racer weighs.

Those are all purpose-built roadracers conceived to have nothing
other than the essentials. A C4 that dates back several evolutionary
stages now, especially one that retains any vestiges of its street
nature is simply going to be heavier.

Incidently, look at what 'street' cars like the McLaren F1 (2840),
Carrera GT (3043), Ferrari F1 (3815) and the Bugatti Veyron (4160)
weigh. All designed by smart folks using cutting edge tech and
materials.

.

Last edited by Slalom4me; 06-10-2006 at 10:31 AM.
Slalom4me is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 02:15 AM
  #18  
ScaryFast
CF Senior Member
 
ScaryFast's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2001
Location: Detroit's West Side MI
Posts: 4,867
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by NitrousSam
I am curious why you say NEVER? All CF body panels, no accesseries, all lexan windows, gut the interior, roof skin, no cage, all aluminum engine, Bogart or Weld Aluma Star wheels, titanium wheel studs and nuts, carbon brakes, titanium and aluminum fasteners, carbon fiber dash skin...with this thought process I find it hard to believe that 2500 lbs is not possible in a fully gutted car...call me crazy
It would be VERY difficult and quite costly. My 1993 is as stripped as you can go "for free" and currently weighs in at about 2950. Key items removed:

interior (everything - carpet, sound mat, airbags, wheel replaced with race version, dash, IP, all electronics except engine computer and ABS computer, all wiring except engine harness, smaller battery, etc). In the engine bay everything is gone except the motor (heater core, ducting, all emissions, AC, headlights, wiring, etc.) I added a thin-guage aluminum IP skin and
autometer guages (Oil Press, tach, Oil and water temp). I have a four point hoop but not full cage.

The only thing left to do for me is replace body panels with lightweight. The hood and glass would be the biggest improvements. However, even if I did lightweight panels and lexan windows I doubt I could get 500 more pounds of savings. My estimation - 2700lbs is not far off with some cash, 2600 is possible with cash and creativity, and 2500 is really unlikely - but possible. You'd have to do the things that only a high dollar team could do like rifle drilling fasteners, lightweight wheels, aluminum block, etc. Possible but a little ridiculous. High dollar teams aren't racing C4's anymore.

Last edited by ScaryFast; 06-10-2006 at 02:18 AM.
ScaryFast is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 09:52 AM
  #19  
NitrousSam
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
Thread Starter
 
NitrousSam's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Vernon OH
Posts: 2,951
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default 2500

Thanks everyone.
NitrousSam is offline  
Old 06-10-2006, 10:05 AM
  #20  
Slalom4me
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: Edmonton AB
Posts: 8,818
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by Slalom4me
... But real racers ...
As I read this now, I wish I had worded it differently.

No offense intended.

Ken R.

.
Slalom4me is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: 2500 lb C4


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: