So of course my Master was leaking yesterday.. Afetr work, no pedal..

This AM I swapped the guts from the newer master and installed them in my old one. got a pedal and test drove it. It seems fine, goes into 1st easy, reverse is as I thoughtt it would be, fairly easy.. Gonna take it out later today to see how it is..

Currently I have a old master with new internals,
New corrected Slave, new line.. Being that I saw leaks on my new master body (#5 from Car quest) I would guess that is the issue as to why GM pulled them back They are all ultimately made by TRW I believe.

Anyway, I just hope this lasts longer then a day to 2 and I can actually enjoy the car..

 

So my Phoenix Injector Maxi-Ject Pro MAXPRO-205 showed up today and I've already got the new GM master cyl. sitting on the bench. I guess that means I'm ready to tackle the problem again this weekend. So how difficult is the master cyl. to replace, any pointers? And any other suggestions while I'm doing this? Thanks again for all the input/help.

 

As I've done my master four times I guess I'll give you what I found works for me....not saying that I have the best way but these steps work for me.
-remove knee bolster, discon light & ALDL remove mting screw.
-reach up and flip clip from push rod.
-remove gill panel, battery, ECM gets flipped over toward motor if you like, I move mine makes it easier to see a top view...On my car the rocker comes off to be out of the way so I don't damage it, part NLA. You could proly get gill off without removing rocker.
-after battery is out you're home free to work, 13 mm on master bolts and 14mm line wrech on line fitting.
-reverse to install...don't lock up the bolts on the master, just get the spacer & them to hold so you can go put the clip back on the pushrod. Then go back and get the master's bolts T/Q'ed down. Connect line and go below & hook up phoenix & bleed system.

Good Luck!

Tom
P.S. better get on the list for the modified master spacer from Mr. Boudreau. Go read the new section on our hyd problems, last issue at bottom of page1 confirms something I had thought was happening. Our OEM mounting orientation is not optimal for the amount of pedal travel & causes bore scoring in the replacement parts.

 

when was this found? Where is the post?

 

Top 'o the mornin' to ya , Jeff!

I was over at Bill site yesterday and the last item at the bottom of the page in the new section Bill made up about the C4 hydrulic sustem....the first selection at his home page, you know the page that has all your work on this problem...? Anyway it's the last item at the bottom of the new hyd section, they talk about piston scuff @ the master due to incorrect orientation relative to the "arch of piston travel causing bore scoring due to piston rock in the bore"!!!!!

How's your car??? Mine's still at the dealer & I will call today to see what's up.

Tom

 

AH, I see it now.. Damn there are a lot of my emails there.. LOL

At any rate, the Master issue has been that way for years.

I have my Old Master installed with the guts from my new master. After master #7 was leaking externally I figured I would try the new guts in the old body.

I fixed it last Saturday, it sat nose up Monday and Tuesday and worked flawlessly on Wednesday.

I cleaned the old master, but that was it. My old master was installed in 1997, It was probably fine when I started this mess in April, I found a rebuild kit PN from Wagner for the master. I will order one at some point.

At least it seems to be fixed now, The new master I got that is leaking might get returned, but I don't have all the new parts, I might just strip it and keep it for spare parts. I have a used slave and master coming my way (free) along with some other parts. I will get a rebuild kit for the Master and keep it as a spare as well

 

Yea you're famous!!

Hey!?! Where did you get rebuild kits from

I don't have the OEM master as the dealer did that job...should have asked for the old part....but what did I know at the time!

Chevy still says kits not ava at this time!

All my replacement masters have a degree of bore scoring but I'm convinced that as Bill says the machinning process leaves a lot to be desired in the Q/C dept. They found metal from the bore and the piston upon examination after tear down....that combined with lack of Q/C could be a bad combination in the long run....I e-mailed Bill to see if he wanted any of my stuff to experiment with & asked to be put on the "spacer" list!


Tom

 

I have not bought a rebuild kit yet, but have the PN somewhere. I need to look for it again and will email it to you

 

Thanks Jeff! Boy I should learn to type! Or type slower!:o

I have the chevy P/N's someplace. I was not aware that wagoner or raybestos made re-build kits. Over at rockauto they took all the listings for the rebuild kits off of the on-line catalog about three weeks ago...I find that curious????? What do they know that the rest of us don't know? I still think that TRW or whomever makes this stuff is gonna do the two step around this issue. Too many curious conincidences about disappearing parts and parts not in the system and parts not ava at this time for me to think that this trouble "came to their attention" only recently?? Seems too much like a pat hand, if you ask me, somebody knew long before Bill spoke to Tom Henry Chevy about this issue. Okay maybe I'm lookin' under the bed for the boogie man! Maybe I should just lighten-up...but man if I was to find out that THEY were hoping this would go away on it's own I would be angry & disappointed.
Okay rant off!:o

My apologies to every one here for my "lunitic ranting's":o


Tom

 

Hey guys thanks for the input, getting ready to start on the vette One more question before I install the new MC should I tear it down like the slave and inspect for anything?
Thanks

 

Sorry so many questions but got another. When bleeding usingthe RFI method what procedure have you guys been using? Does the car have to be level or can I have the front jacked up, as I will to access the bleeder? Do I push fluid through, then close bleeder and pump pedal, or do I not need to do this? Please anyone using the RFI blleding method give me any pointers and let me know what's worked for you.

 

 

Car MUST BE LEVEL

Wrap Teflon around the bleeder threads 6 or 7 times before installing the bleeder.

Using the RFI Bleeder, Follow the Bleeders instructions on how to prime it and use it.

Once the master is filled to a reasonable level (if someone is checking for you then tighten bleeder) or if by yourself, tighten bleeder if you are to check the level.

Pump the pedal a few times to see if you have pressure, if so install the cap, pump it 50 times. you should then have a good pedal, assuming the New master is not problematic like the 7 I went through

 

UV70, Jeff has had leaking weld issues @ the line bung, I've been lucky with that...I only have masters with scored bores! I will say that I've opened every master & found seals correctly installed in every one.

As for bleeding....With the car level. I usually cycle about one full phoenix bottle thru the system before I do any pedal pushing...I do believe that is excessive & a waste of time but when stuff would not work I was questioning all the steps in my r&r process! I do load the slave and masters on the bench before installing them...but I have enough bleed screws to put in all the holes for transport & installation ... I do master first & connect the line & t/q it up & the bolts, I have a rubber cap on the other end of line, then the slave gets put on the line and put in. That step lets some fluid get down the line from the master. The slave gets bolted in & the master's reservior still has fluid over the exit hole. I connect the V-12 and push one bottle thru, then I step on the pedal to break the plastic push rod retainer, then I go back & push another bottle of fluid thru with the V-12. Once I'm satisfied that I did all I could for bleeding the air out I try the 100 pedal pumps of varying speeds and depths.... Usually I get a pedal almost instantly...but that's just my method & since I can't get my system to stay working for more than an hour with out gear clash...well I guess that just makes me an unsuccessful parts changer! Oh make sure you rap all the threads with teflon tape, just becareful about the holes and stray tape fibers.


Tom

 

I'm hangin' on by a thread here guys (pun intended). Thanks to all that read this and even more so to those that help/post a reply!!! Well I know it seems like a while to come back to my own thread, but I just finally found the time and acually got off my a$$ to actually perform the repairs I said I was going to do (had alot going on the past couple months, I'm sure alot of you can sympathize).
Well installed the new master cylinder (already have new slave cylinder, seal inspected and corrected as you can see in the my first post in the thread).
Mmmm my girlfriend just brought me in a nice home cooked meal, even though I've been a little on edge (an understatement) and a di@k this evening with everything I've been fighting
As I started out saying, finally installed the new MC. Got everything bench bled, installed, gravity bled (the best you can with something that some dipsh!t engineer decided to put the bleeder on the bottom of), and then hooked up the Phenoix RF bleeder (actually was kind-of excited to see how well it worked) and gave it couple squirts. As I expected bubble-bubble-bubble. Pumped pedal, bubble-bubble-bubble, injected fluid, pumped pedal, bubble-bubble-bubble. This gets a bit repetitious. Literally pushed a quart through the system and pumped the pedal (anywhere from 10-50 times) after every few shots of a couple ounces. My girlfriend watched/or pumped while I watched (she's a peach and/or nuts for putting up with me and the $#@kin Vette) and the bubble-bubble-bubble never stops coming up through the MC.
Sorry this is so long-winded, but it's late, I'm pissed, confused, needed to vent, and just about fed up with this piece of $#@kin **** that I've got 20K and buttload time invested in that I've yet to get to drive.
Any suggestions would be appecitated, even if they include gasoline and a match
To Jeff and tomtom. All your prev. posts have been appeciated, hope you see this and have some more input

 

With the slave removed from the bellhousing and the piston all the way extended, can you get a rock hard pedal?

 

I recently replaced my master, and slave cylinders. Just a suggestion...The bolt that connects the hose to the slave was seating too soon, not sealing, allowing air to enter the system. New copper seals fixed the problem. Of course a week later the hose blew at the rubber section, but that's another story. Good Luck

 

......from a rookie C4 owner!:o

Hi ya UV70, I empatize with ya! If I may suggest a slight change in the process:

In stead of pumping the pedal between V12 injections, just load up a bottle and evacuate it and then push that bottle thru from the slave bleeder screw(bleeder screw has to have teflon tape). I know it's a pia cause ya gotta empty the master after a couple of pumps of the v12. Then after one v12 bottle use the pedal to break the seal and then I push another bottle up thru....notice the only pumping I'm doing so far is the pump to break the plastic retainer on the slave rod. In truth the last time I did this I didn't even put the plastic retainer back in. I just loaded the slave on the bench and stuffed it in & let the fluid come out the bleeder as I pushed on it to start the nuts. Then I put two bottles thru & no air eventually by the beginning of the second bottle &* no pumping of the pedal till I was done with the second bottle.

Sorry this is soooo long! I have an e-mail from Bill as I sent all my paperweights to him for evaluation....interesting the things that he found wrong with my collection!!! One master had a defect in the reservior plastic at the nipple that goes into the cyl body = air leak. Two of my slaves had un-true bores = too much run out on the long axix & concentricity variations! Another master had porous metal for the bore. A slave had porous metal in the bore. Another slave had bad scoring and bad welds @ the bungs. He said it's a wonder that I got anything to work long enough to get the car to move at all.

If you can't seem to get the air out of an otherwise good looking system then you may have one or more of a combination of the defects I had in my parts...the tough thing is that alot of the defects don't show up as anything more than the inability to get air out of the system. The v12 method should after one bottle have all the air out & the system should function even after breaking the plastic retainer there should be enough fluid left in the reservior to cover the hole and not let air back in...I was told by a tech & observed that myself in practice. Therefore if you have bleed the system & still have air you may have a combination of the defects that allow air back in after bleeding. As you see there is more to this "defective Q/C" than just some seals on backwards!

I apologize to the forum for being soooo long about this. UV70, hit me up if I've left anything on the table. PM me if need be....don't be hesitant!

Tom

 

....for posting stuff that's so long!:o I think that until GM & TRW get the parts fixed we are on our own. I got my hyd system to work and I'm using my car now but....big but....I'm seeing evidence of the latest defect that Mr. Boudreau has found....evidence that the mounting position(angle) of the master cyl is not optimal and that condition causes excessive side loading of the piston + seals at a certain point in it's travel thru the M/C bore, ya get cloudy fluid after about 100 miles or so. The stuff in your fluid, according to Bill, is the result of excessive friction between the bore and the piston in the last 1/3 of it's travel & that's the point of max system hyd pressure. His solution is a new spacer with a different angle cut on it to correct this "cocking" of the piston causing the seals to wear and the piston metal to contact the bore. Nice, a self destructive mechanism built right in due to design. Ya know the eventual result. Bill says it's not a defective part as much as the angle of the firewall is not exactly matched to the spacer that came with our cars.

Again I apologize to the membership for being so long. I just wanted to pass on whatever I can that might help others out.


Tom

 

ultraviolet70,

How many Slaves and Master did you go through? I went through 7 or 8 Masters.. none of them good. I finally took the guts from the last master I bought and installed them in my 8 year old master with no external leaks.

My slave I fixed as you did and the car has been working for over a month with no issues. but I started this in March, car was not fixed until July.

Another thing I am curious on is how you are using the Phoenix Injector? Did you follow the instructions to Purge it before connecting it to the Slave? Are you using Teflon tape on the Bleeder of the slave? Both are important steps.

I just helped a friend with the ZF6 trans in his 84, we replaced the slave, I used the Phoenix injector and bled it, but got no pedal. the Problem was I pumped the injector too fast an bubbles got in the system. SO I opened the bleed until the master emptied and tried again, I purged the fluid (as the manul suggests) with full pumps, but then reset the pump setting to about 1/2 to minimize bubbles. Pumped in the fluid, within 10 clutch pedal cycles the pedal was solid.

You sound like me beign frustrated but you will get there. As Bill B told me, step away from the car and approach it in a calm mood.. it will help