9 Inch Ford Solid Rear Axle Conversion for C4
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,532
Likes: 7
From: Lahaina Hi
Sam the "T" for the C-Beam sounds good but what about the fuel lines on one side of the car and the brake lines on the other.
I run 5/8 fuel and return lines on the passenger side and that leaves no room for ground clearence for a bolt in T beam?
I think it would have to bolted to the floor board,Body flex may be a problem along with road noise when going over bumps.
Just a thought as I was banging my C-beam back inplace an hour ago.
It seams as if the front of the T would have to be set up with an adjustable snubber like an old style traction bar so you can adjust the angle of the rear .I can't see that type of clearence with our cars.
My X brace on my vert is always hitting something if I hit the brake just right when going over a speed bump.
Just my 02
I run 5/8 fuel and return lines on the passenger side and that leaves no room for ground clearence for a bolt in T beam?
I think it would have to bolted to the floor board,Body flex may be a problem along with road noise when going over bumps.
Just a thought as I was banging my C-beam back inplace an hour ago.
It seams as if the front of the T would have to be set up with an adjustable snubber like an old style traction bar so you can adjust the angle of the rear .I can't see that type of clearence with our cars.
My X brace on my vert is always hitting something if I hit the brake just right when going over a speed bump.
Just my 02
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Sam if I follow you correctly you are saying to run the single side of the new t beam to the transmission and them run the top side or double side of the T to the rear somewhere and attach it to the frame???
If this is correct I think you will have WAY WAY too much flex in it for proper support of the transmission and motor. Remember there is a ujoint of the front of the driveshaft as well and I think that will buckle under the stresses if things are not held GOOD and RIGID.
How are the camaros with their beam that runs front to rear? I know they have a single pivot point on the rear....but I think they also have a tranmission cross member.
I saw how leo did insanities and it did not look all that bad....I will have to get more detailed photos of it from those guys to see exactly how he connected it to the frame etc.
Try to describe what your thinking with the t beam more or confirm my thoughts above....maybe I am just misunderstanding your thoughts.
Thansk,
If this is correct I think you will have WAY WAY too much flex in it for proper support of the transmission and motor. Remember there is a ujoint of the front of the driveshaft as well and I think that will buckle under the stresses if things are not held GOOD and RIGID.
How are the camaros with their beam that runs front to rear? I know they have a single pivot point on the rear....but I think they also have a tranmission cross member.
I saw how leo did insanities and it did not look all that bad....I will have to get more detailed photos of it from those guys to see exactly how he connected it to the frame etc.
Try to describe what your thinking with the t beam more or confirm my thoughts above....maybe I am just misunderstanding your thoughts.
Thansk,
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 800
Likes: 3
From: Port Orange FL
Then in the front the torque arm fits into a rubber bushing that attaches to the rear of the transmission tailshaft. It is bolted solid to the rear and pivots up and down freely at the tailshaft.
And yes the transmission sits on a crossmember.
Roy
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
I was inquiring about the torque arm on the camaros as I was not entirely sure if they supported the trans with it somehow....I figured they used a crossmember yet and it was just a pivot on the trans side...which is appears it is.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Likes: 2
From: Chattanooga TN
thats probably the biggest obstacle to this on the C4`s... how to make a cross member thats structurally sound enough, yet doesnt cause ground/exhaust clearance issues...
Pro
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 737
Likes: 11
From: Charlotte MI
Like I explain today, the tongue of the are is in rubber because the geometry of the suspension on a F-body is geometrical bound. To make them work effectively the front of the arm has to float in a blade in block configuration.
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 3
From: Mount Vernon OH
Sam the "T" for the C-Beam sounds good but what about the fuel lines on one side of the car and the brake lines on the other.
I run 5/8 fuel and return lines on the passenger side and that leaves no room for ground clearence for a bolt in T beam?
I think it would have to bolted to the floor board,Body flex may be a problem along with road noise when going over bumps.
Just a thought as I was banging my C-beam back inplace an hour ago.
It seams as if the front of the T would have to be set up with an adjustable snubber like an old style traction bar so you can adjust the angle of the rear .I can't see that type of clearence with our cars.
My X brace on my vert is always hitting something if I hit the brake just right when going over a speed bump.
Just my 02
I run 5/8 fuel and return lines on the passenger side and that leaves no room for ground clearence for a bolt in T beam?
I think it would have to bolted to the floor board,Body flex may be a problem along with road noise when going over bumps.
Just a thought as I was banging my C-beam back inplace an hour ago.
It seams as if the front of the T would have to be set up with an adjustable snubber like an old style traction bar so you can adjust the angle of the rear .I can't see that type of clearence with our cars.
My X brace on my vert is always hitting something if I hit the brake just right when going over a speed bump.
Just my 02
I believe the T beam has plenty of merit and will need some tweaking to be successful but I believe it will be the key to making it work without a transmission crossmember and as a bolt in assembly.
I believe the C-beam is partially why others have never got this type of conversion off the ground. I believe it can be done and I believe the t-beam is going to be the key to making it work. The fuel line question you raised is valid on certain model years and a notch will have to be made in the actual T section for clearance but that should be not a major issue. As far as mounting the T to the floor...that is simply not an option because it will compromise strength and I believe there would be flex in the floor which would allow the transmission to pivot which would probably break the transmission case and probably put a nice kink in the floor.
Keep the ideas coming
NitrousSam
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Good talking with you today! This posting was before you called me back....understand exactly what you were saying and thanks for the picture. Pretty slick...and keeps it legal...
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 3
From: Mount Vernon OH
Sam if I follow you correctly you are saying to run the single side of the new t beam to the transmission and them run the top side or double side of the T to the rear somewhere and attach it to the frame???
If this is correct I think you will have WAY WAY too much flex in it for proper support of the transmission and motor. Remember there is a ujoint of the front of the driveshaft as well and I think that will buckle under the stresses if things are not held GOOD and RIGID.
If this is correct I think you will have WAY WAY too much flex in it for proper support of the transmission and motor. Remember there is a ujoint of the front of the driveshaft as well and I think that will buckle under the stresses if things are not held GOOD and RIGID.
Keep your ideas coming
NitrousSam
P.S. I think you will like my 84...it is really taking shape and looks like a car again. I had the entire nose off with only a pair of frame rails sticking out...we are putting body panels on it now and plumbing the twin fuel systems
Pro
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 658
Likes: 7
From: Perth Amboy New Jersey
OK you turkeys have talked me into this!
I was out at the dealership for 4 hours under mine and have a pretty good plan for this thing....coupled with some pictures of other guys setups I have a REAL good idea what I need to do.
Couple of things...that pertain to this thread and things you guys will need to address...
ANY solid rear setup you guys try to put in will be VERY VERY near the floorboard in the rear. Our stationary setup sits only about 1" away from the floor of the car...and as you all know the IRS is stationary...as a result you will NEED to lower the forward mounts of the 4 link which sorta shoots the bolt in idea out the window. OTherwise to get the geometry of the links you will want, the bracket will need to be lowered as mentioned or the rear will be smacking off the floor when you hit a bump and it will have NO upward movement....
So to counteract this you will need to lower the bracketry for the front 4 link as low as you can...this is not a huge deal, but will require welding the brackets in...no real way to bolt them back in as the frame is solid there...I suppose you could make some brackets up with a backing that would go back up to the original bolts, but I would not feel safe with that setup...So welding would be required. Again its not REAL super hard stuff/area to do it in.
A track bar will have to be used to save room and locate the rear from side to side. Here you can use the original mount from the batwing to pin the one side of that bar.
Brackets for the brakes I guess can be bought from what people have told me, but again they will need to be welded on, again not a big deal.
A few of the challenges that lie ahead are the mounts for the coil overs...again you could use the stock upper locations, but I like the idea of moving them to the rear...its only two welds to relocate them...again though if your looking for a bolt in setup,,,this might make things tricky.
The trans cross member is going to be real hard to get a bolt in concept. The way our cars are its tough to even see the frame to weld something in place let along bolt something in.
Couple of question i have for you guys.....lowest priced rear setup I could find assembled that I would even consider working with was a strange setup and its 2400+shipping.
Anyone have a place to get the brake brackets...RedL98...can you get me some part numbers and stuff that you used...? Thanks..
I was out at the dealership for 4 hours under mine and have a pretty good plan for this thing....coupled with some pictures of other guys setups I have a REAL good idea what I need to do.
Couple of things...that pertain to this thread and things you guys will need to address...
ANY solid rear setup you guys try to put in will be VERY VERY near the floorboard in the rear. Our stationary setup sits only about 1" away from the floor of the car...and as you all know the IRS is stationary...as a result you will NEED to lower the forward mounts of the 4 link which sorta shoots the bolt in idea out the window. OTherwise to get the geometry of the links you will want, the bracket will need to be lowered as mentioned or the rear will be smacking off the floor when you hit a bump and it will have NO upward movement....
So to counteract this you will need to lower the bracketry for the front 4 link as low as you can...this is not a huge deal, but will require welding the brackets in...no real way to bolt them back in as the frame is solid there...I suppose you could make some brackets up with a backing that would go back up to the original bolts, but I would not feel safe with that setup...So welding would be required. Again its not REAL super hard stuff/area to do it in.
A track bar will have to be used to save room and locate the rear from side to side. Here you can use the original mount from the batwing to pin the one side of that bar.
Brackets for the brakes I guess can be bought from what people have told me, but again they will need to be welded on, again not a big deal.
A few of the challenges that lie ahead are the mounts for the coil overs...again you could use the stock upper locations, but I like the idea of moving them to the rear...its only two welds to relocate them...again though if your looking for a bolt in setup,,,this might make things tricky.
The trans cross member is going to be real hard to get a bolt in concept. The way our cars are its tough to even see the frame to weld something in place let along bolt something in.
Couple of question i have for you guys.....lowest priced rear setup I could find assembled that I would even consider working with was a strange setup and its 2400+shipping.
Anyone have a place to get the brake brackets...RedL98...can you get me some part numbers and stuff that you used...? Thanks..
http://www.uniqueperformanceproducts...aspx?ItemID=27
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 758
Likes: 1
From: Cumming GA
I put a 9" in my 91 as well
I took the torque arm approach so I didn't have to cut up the fiberglass in the rear compartments. Mostly because I like tooling around with my removable roof back there, tucked between the down bars of my 6 point.
Anyway, I spent a good 2 months putting this thing in, and talked mostly with tpi421 and Phil Tobin (Hoover) I split the difference from what they did and found a new way of stuffing a 9" into a C4.
With the Torque arm settup, I had to have a shop build the torque arm piece for me out of chrome moly. this was $700.00, but turned out to be a beautiful piece. Then the next hardest part was fabricating a bracket on the 9" center section that could be removable just incase I break it or obvously for gear swaps. After that, It was about understanding what wheel offset would give me the best opportunity and narrow the housing to fit in the car. Then a Visa and a phone call to Moser for the axles, bearings etc. I reused the stock rotors and calipers by borrowing the aluminum bracket from the dana and making a bracket to adapt the 9" housing to it. (bolt on)
Take a look at some of the pics. I am very happy with strength, I have been running 10.30s with the 4L80E and trans break, and the car is on the tree consistant everytime.
I am running a 28" ET street and 1.4's 60's no 1.39 yet maybe next year-the 4L80E is a hog.
http://bowtye8.tzo.com/bowtie8/corve...0Rear/Bowtie8/
John
517-304-6990
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
John
was looking at your photos last night that redl98 forwarded me. yeah the torque arm you used was pretty slick...
I too have been trying to get as many ideas from previous setups as possible to come up with a hybrid of sorts for my project. That torque arm does look pretty complicated and would cost pretty much to incorporate.
I don't mind running a crossmember for the trans in my car...either inside and down or underneath like neverlift did...my car is not lowered and the roads around here are pretty decent + my trans pan already sits pretty low with the aftermarket pan on it..which the brace would be behind that and at about the same height.
I too do not want to cut up my car..so I am going to go with the stock locations, and try to move them inward as much as possible to gain as much clearance as possible.
If you don't mind I would like to call and chat with you about your setup...what time would be good?
Thanks for sharing the photos!
was looking at your photos last night that redl98 forwarded me. yeah the torque arm you used was pretty slick...
I too have been trying to get as many ideas from previous setups as possible to come up with a hybrid of sorts for my project. That torque arm does look pretty complicated and would cost pretty much to incorporate.
I don't mind running a crossmember for the trans in my car...either inside and down or underneath like neverlift did...my car is not lowered and the roads around here are pretty decent + my trans pan already sits pretty low with the aftermarket pan on it..which the brace would be behind that and at about the same height.
I too do not want to cut up my car..so I am going to go with the stock locations, and try to move them inward as much as possible to gain as much clearance as possible.
If you don't mind I would like to call and chat with you about your setup...what time would be good?
Thanks for sharing the photos!
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Likes: 2
From: Chattanooga TN
on the 3rd gen F-bodies the front of the torque arm is restrained by a rubber bushing in a bracket bolted to the back of the tranny, which is supported by the crossmember. thus any forces imparted by the torque arm to the tranny, will ultimately be transfered to the crossmember...
correct me if i am mistaken, but i believe on the 4th gen F-bodies, the torque arm bracket bolts directly to the crossmember itself, instead of the tranny... not that it makes any real difference in the torque arms function.
correct me if i am mistaken, but i believe on the 4th gen F-bodies, the torque arm bracket bolts directly to the crossmember itself, instead of the tranny... not that it makes any real difference in the torque arms function.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Likes: 2
From: Chattanooga TN
the bottom line is: a torque arm on a moving solid axle simply cant be used to support the tranny, like the factory C brace does between the tranny, and the OEM IRS housing does...
a crossmember, or some other means of providing solid, sturdy support of the tranny must be used, torque arm, or not....
a crossmember, or some other means of providing solid, sturdy support of the tranny must be used, torque arm, or not....
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 3
From: Mount Vernon OH
Hey Jesse
I put a 9" in my 91 as well
I took the torque arm approach so I didn't have to cut up the fiberglass in the rear compartments. Mostly because I like tooling around with my removable roof back there, tucked between the down bars of my 6 point.
Anyway, I spent a good 2 months putting this thing in, and talked mostly with tpi421 and Phil Tobin (Hoover) I split the difference from what they did and found a new way of stuffing a 9" into a C4.
With the Torque arm settup, I had to have a shop build the torque arm piece for me out of chrome moly. this was $700.00, but turned out to be a beautiful piece. Then the next hardest part was fabricating a bracket on the 9" center section that could be removable just incase I break it or obvously for gear swaps. After that, It was about understanding what wheel offset would give me the best opportunity and narrow the housing to fit in the car. Then a Visa and a phone call to Moser for the axles, bearings etc. I reused the stock rotors and calipers by borrowing the aluminum bracket from the dana and making a bracket to adapt the 9" housing to it. (bolt on)
Take a look at some of the pics. I am very happy with strength, I have been running 10.30s with the 4L80E and trans break, and the car is on the tree consistant everytime.
I am running a 28" ET street and 1.4's 60's no 1.39 yet maybe next year-the 4L80E is a hog.
http://bowtye8.tzo.com/bowtie8/corve...0Rear/Bowtie8/
John
517-304-6990
I put a 9" in my 91 as well
I took the torque arm approach so I didn't have to cut up the fiberglass in the rear compartments. Mostly because I like tooling around with my removable roof back there, tucked between the down bars of my 6 point.
Anyway, I spent a good 2 months putting this thing in, and talked mostly with tpi421 and Phil Tobin (Hoover) I split the difference from what they did and found a new way of stuffing a 9" into a C4.
With the Torque arm settup, I had to have a shop build the torque arm piece for me out of chrome moly. this was $700.00, but turned out to be a beautiful piece. Then the next hardest part was fabricating a bracket on the 9" center section that could be removable just incase I break it or obvously for gear swaps. After that, It was about understanding what wheel offset would give me the best opportunity and narrow the housing to fit in the car. Then a Visa and a phone call to Moser for the axles, bearings etc. I reused the stock rotors and calipers by borrowing the aluminum bracket from the dana and making a bracket to adapt the 9" housing to it. (bolt on)
Take a look at some of the pics. I am very happy with strength, I have been running 10.30s with the 4L80E and trans break, and the car is on the tree consistant everytime.
I am running a 28" ET street and 1.4's 60's no 1.39 yet maybe next year-the 4L80E is a hog.
http://bowtye8.tzo.com/bowtie8/corve...0Rear/Bowtie8/
John
517-304-6990
I would like permission to call you some time next week if that is ok. I took at look at your photos in your website directory and I like what you did.
NitrousSam / Sam Miller
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 758
Likes: 1
From: Cumming GA
No problem
Easiest way is my cel
I live about 2Hrs north of the OH-MI border
517-304-6990
Pro
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 737
Likes: 11
From: Charlotte MI
Hey Jesse
I put a 9" in my 91 as well
I took the torque arm approach so I didn't have to cut up the fiberglass in the rear compartments. Mostly because I like tooling around with my removable roof back there, tucked between the down bars of my 6 point.
Anyway, I spent a good 2 months putting this thing in, and talked mostly with tpi421 and Phil Tobin (Hoover) I split the difference from what they did and found a new way of stuffing a 9" into a C4.
With the Torque arm settup, I had to have a shop build the torque arm piece for me out of chrome moly. this was $700.00, but turned out to be a beautiful piece. Then the next hardest part was fabricating a bracket on the 9" center section that could be removable just incase I break it or obvously for gear swaps. After that, It was about understanding what wheel offset would give me the best opportunity and narrow the housing to fit in the car. Then a Visa and a phone call to Moser for the axles, bearings etc. I reused the stock rotors and calipers by borrowing the aluminum bracket from the dana and making a bracket to adapt the 9" housing to it. (bolt on)
Take a look at some of the pics. I am very happy with strength, I have been running 10.30s with the 4L80E and trans break, and the car is on the tree consistant everytime.
I am running a 28" ET street and 1.4's 60's no 1.39 yet maybe next year-the 4L80E is a hog.
http://bowtye8.tzo.com/bowtie8/corve...0Rear/Bowtie8/
John
517-304-6990
I put a 9" in my 91 as well
I took the torque arm approach so I didn't have to cut up the fiberglass in the rear compartments. Mostly because I like tooling around with my removable roof back there, tucked between the down bars of my 6 point.
Anyway, I spent a good 2 months putting this thing in, and talked mostly with tpi421 and Phil Tobin (Hoover) I split the difference from what they did and found a new way of stuffing a 9" into a C4.
With the Torque arm settup, I had to have a shop build the torque arm piece for me out of chrome moly. this was $700.00, but turned out to be a beautiful piece. Then the next hardest part was fabricating a bracket on the 9" center section that could be removable just incase I break it or obvously for gear swaps. After that, It was about understanding what wheel offset would give me the best opportunity and narrow the housing to fit in the car. Then a Visa and a phone call to Moser for the axles, bearings etc. I reused the stock rotors and calipers by borrowing the aluminum bracket from the dana and making a bracket to adapt the 9" housing to it. (bolt on)
Take a look at some of the pics. I am very happy with strength, I have been running 10.30s with the 4L80E and trans break, and the car is on the tree consistant everytime.
I am running a 28" ET street and 1.4's 60's no 1.39 yet maybe next year-the 4L80E is a hog.
http://bowtye8.tzo.com/bowtie8/corve...0Rear/Bowtie8/
John
517-304-6990
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 758
Likes: 1
From: Cumming GA