i`m sure all the skeptics here appreciate your efforts on this piece as much as i do. however, many of us have purchased "performance" products before, because the marketing hype makes us think: "that souds logical, sure looks like it would flow/perform better than the original part." only to find very little, or no real performance gain.

"butt dyno" testimonials are useless, IMO... everybody "feels" a performance improvement after spending money and/or time on a mod, even when there are no real gains....
thats why many of us want hard PROOF of a gain before we will commit to spending our hard earned money.

track testing is fine, but there are variables of atmosperic and traction conditions, plus driver variables...
chassis dynos can deliver reliable and accurate results, without many of the vaiables that track testing has.

the "we dont drive dynos" statement gives many the impression, incorrect or not, that we should just take your word for it that this piece offers a substantial improvement, and that any accurate means of testing is not needed.
i`m not saying thats wht you actually implied, its just thats how many take your remark, thats all...

 

This appears to be a nicely designed product. Whether it can produce the desired results (more power, less resonance) remains to be seen, of course.
The "we don't drive dynos" statement concerns me. If dynos were not legitimate, useful tools, then organizations like Roush, Lingenfelter, Yates, Rahal, etc. would not own million-dollar dyno facilities.
To imply that dynos serve no useful purpose is to put your credibility in question.

Please, put your production part on a dyno for comparison; your customers deserve to know what they are getting for their money.

Larry
code5coupe

 

Nice work Robert It's good to see someone make an effort to develope parts for our C4's... when alot of other manufactures have forgotten about them.

 

He said he was going to do a dyno comparison with the production piece. Too late? Maybe. But, he did say he was planning to do a test.

 

Good post... I'll try to clarify things a bit.

I've been involved in repairing, modifiying, and racing cars for more than 25 years, and have seen a lot of so-called "performance products" hit the market and do nothing more than separate the consumer from his hard earned dollars myself. I've seen a lot of fast/smooth talkers make a quick buck on the back of others, both in the Corvette community and the high-performance community at large. They're usually not around long, either. Nothing angers me more than a liar or a thief, and these types are exactly that. I've probably lost sales because I'm a "no bulls**t" type of person, and will not tell somebody what they want to hear simply to make a sale. Which brings me to the following:

An X-pipe by itself will make about 10 to sometimes 15 horsepower at the crankshaft on average. The statement "on average" encompasses ALL vehicles, not just Corvettes, and takes into account some of the variables of engine/exhaust design that are out there. If you're looking for an X-pipe to make big power by itself..sorry, it just isn't going to happen, regardless of where you read it or who tells you it will.

What an X-pipe will do in the LTX application is this... it will allow the engine to breathe a little better than the OEM resonator (which necks down to 2.25 inches) and allows the use of high-flow mufflers which will make more power to do so with reduced interior noise. The OEM exhaust system in stock form is quite efficient in its own right. Adding Magnaflow's LTx mufflers (which are 3" mufflers with a 2-3/4" inlet on the tube) causes an increase in exhaust flow, which does two things: "frees up" some HP, and creates more noise, both inside the cabin and out. An X (or H) pipe does help in reducing noise as a side benefit, and they also affect the exhaust tone outside, especially at high-RPM. I designed my LTXPipe with Magnaflow mufflers in mind specifically, but it can be used with whatever muffler setup the enduser decides.

With regard to track testing vs chassis dynos... Yes, chassis dynos are useful tools, and can show the affect of changes made with component swaps, tuning, etc., but their data can be manipulated if it's so desired. Dynos are all too often considered the "end all be all", a stance which can lead to closed mindedness. Dynos (chassis or otherwise) are tools, nothing more, nothing less. Certainly track testing is subject to variables, but what isn't? Dynos are too, even with correction factors. I'm not so closed minded to exclude chassis dyno numbers, but I try to keep things in perspective here. I drive a Corvette, on the road and on the track. What "rwhp and rwtq" numbers mean to me are a guideline only... it shows me what to expect under ideal conditions at the track or on the street, in other words... the "real world". What my Vette does on the track is subject to track prep, car setup, etc. The referenced tuners and shops incorporate "real world" track testing as well as dyno testing. You have to look at the big picture is what it boils down to, which is where my "we don't drive dynos" statement comes from.

That being said, I wouldn't expect to see a large gain as measured on a dyno with my LTXPipe, and those who live and die by dyno numbers alone should probably pass on it. Will this stance cost me sales? Probably... but as I stated before, I believe in telling things how they are, rather than telling people what they want to hear.

 

I know you said you were planning to do a dyno comparison...the intent of my post was to encourage you to follow through with those plans.

The dyno is probably subject to the fewest variables of any tool, certainly far fewer than a race track. That's why dynos are used as much as they are.

Fixed.
You are correct, and that is exactly why dyno results are so useful; they tell us what we can expect in the real world.

Please, do that dyno testing...I'll be very interested in seeing the results. (I have a feeling that the LT4's will see the least improvement, since they already have an H-pipe exhaust. )

Larry
code5coupe

 

good explanation. thanks for clarifying things. i wasnt implying that dyno figures cant be manipulated. there certainly are people and companies that can and do "tweak" their dyno figures in various ways to make their products look better than they actually are.

 

How much are you going to sell the x-pipe for? I would be interested in one depending on price.

 

Pricing is still unknown, due in part to the cost of steel... I don't know myself the actual cost, and will not speculate. All I can say for the moment is that I'm trying to keep it reasonable.

 

Let me know when you come up with something.

 

I was curious. I don't want to doubt anyone or anything, and seeing (or hearing) is believing. But this just seems odd. How would straight pipes reduce resonance when compared to perforated pipes surrounded by glass packing (in essence another muffler)? I've heard some people say an X-pipe had less resonance, and some say it had more.

It just seems odd it would be less. I'd think OEM's would jump on it if it were really quieter, as a X-pipe should be a lot cheaper to make (when made to the same standards) than a casing with tubes inside and stuffed with glass packing.

I was also wondering, what's the diameter where the pipes come together?

Lastly, as you're a Magnaflow fan, maybe you can suggest they make a muffler with dual outlets spaced properly for the C4? I wanted to use their mufflers when I was changing my system, but the outlet spacing would have meant my OEM tips wouldn't fit right. They would have been touching. Flowmaster and Dynomax didn't have this problem, I ended up going with Dynomax Ultraflow SS mufflers in order to retain the stock look.

 

I'm interested in this product, but have a few questions:

1. You state the the product is currently in production and then later state you don't know the price because you don't know the cost of steel. How can you be in production without purchasing the raw material (if fabricating yourself) or having a quote from your supplier on the final cost (if subcontracting)?

2. What grade of steel are you using?

3. You say "the key is to carefully measure before cutting." I'm not all that familiar with the exhaust design on these cars. Does installing this x-pipe require cutting the factory exhaust? I'm interested in upgrading my exhaust, but want to be able to return it to stock when I sell the car in another year or two.

4. Once you get the price set, could you email me a price for this x-pipe and some Magnaflow mufflers for my '96 convertible, shipped to 74012? My email is robertwilson2@***.net

Thanks!

 

I have the first gen weld on x-pipe. It is a very well made piece. It did reduce the resonance with my muffler elim setup. It would have been even better to have one that was bolt on. As far as dyno numbers go x-pipes have already been proven many times to show an increase and to have a scavenging effect. It will be interesting to see how well it works on our LT1's and LT4's. I don't believe in SOTP performance measurements so I won't comment. It was reasonably priced and I believe it will definitely help with power especially in addition to/complimenting other mods. I have yet to hear of anyone who actually installed one being unsatisfied with the results. I also agree that dyno numbers can easily be twisted and few experienced people trust a company advertising dyno gains. In particular the large catalog company, you all know of, that claims ridiculous hp gains form junk items. I do believe that it's companies like that, that make so many people bitter. However, if you don't like it, then don't buy it. Don't be so quick to bash an item that is not even completed yet, especially if you have never tried it in your own car. I think it is great to see someone designing new reasonably priced hard to find items for our cars, especially one that I consider a good product. I hope that more people consider designing new performance items for our C4's. Let's try not to discourage them.


Edit: If there is anyone else here that actually has the x-pipe installed I'm sure we'd like to hear more comments.

 

Does that mean in comparison to a car with the factory resonator and no mufflers? Or that it's quieter than a car with nothing but straight pipes?

 

Thanks for the work on the X-pipe. Are they going to manuf it in 3" as well?

 

for B&B exhaust spacing????

 

Yes, I originally had the factory exhaust manifold and resonator with the muffler elim. I then replaced the factory resonator with the x-pipe and still had the factory exhaust manifold and muffler elim. I noticed a decrease in resonance and what I would describe as a slight pulsing sound at idle from the rear.

 

That remains to be seen, doesn't it?

I, too, thinks it's great that someone is working on C4 performance items. I hope this product is everything RacerX70CC is shooting for, and that he sells a thousand of them.

In the meantime, however, all we have are unsubstantiated claims....whether it's by MAM or RacerX. It's one thing to try to build market demand for a yet-to-be-released product, but lets be aware of truth in advertising in the process.

It was stated in one of Racer's posts that "X-pipes will give 10-15hp ON AVERAGE" Most people will interpret this to mean that they can expect at least 10hp. What this really means is that a car that originally had a single exhaust might see a 20hp gain with the X-pipe and duals, whereas a car with a decent exhaust (like a Corvette?) might see a LOSS of 5hp!!! (average is 15hp gain)
I think most skeptics agree; if you don't have solid, true numbers to present, then don't throw around numbers that may or may not be applicable....that's all.

Good luck, Racer!

Larry
code5coupe

 

Sounds like something that I might be interested in as well. The resonator is the only weak link left in my exhaust setup but I too (before purchasing) would be curious to see some dyno results from the swap. My exhaust sounds pretty darn good right now but if a little more hp was to be gained w/ this x-pipe (in addition to the sound benefits), I'd very likely purchase one - especially since I'm also running the Magnaflows.

 

I have only seen one other company making a generic x-pipe that may fit our cars and I do not believe it is a direct fit piece. Maybe there are more I just havn't seen. If I remember correctly, the weld on x-pipe I was refering to cost less than half the price of the other brand. I can not comment on what the new bolt on models will cost.