Modern Oils = Not good??
Thread Starter
Race Director
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From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
Modern Oils = Not good??
http://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm
Form your own opinions...........
This isn't the first time I've heard this. About two years ago, Car and Driver had an editorial that alluded to the same thing.... They even recommended the same diesel oils..............
Larry
code5coue
Form your own opinions...........
This isn't the first time I've heard this. About two years ago, Car and Driver had an editorial that alluded to the same thing.... They even recommended the same diesel oils..............
Larry
code5coue
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Heidelberg PA
Cruise-In V Veteran
This is not a new issue.
New oil composition does not hurt rollers. If your concerned, just use synthetic or racing oil. Problems with flat tappan engines.
I tell friends & fellow racers about this and some listen and some look at me like I am crazy. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
This issue is similar to the melling oil pump problems and there have been many posts on this, yet people still buy & install them.
New oil composition does not hurt rollers. If your concerned, just use synthetic or racing oil. Problems with flat tappan engines.
I tell friends & fellow racers about this and some listen and some look at me like I am crazy. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
This issue is similar to the melling oil pump problems and there have been many posts on this, yet people still buy & install them.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Heidelberg PA
Cruise-In V Veteran
Sorry, I can't see a problem with a tranny. The issue with the new oils relates mainly to the Zinc that sacrifices itself between tthe flat tappan lifter and the cam. Without the zinc to ride on the cam can get wiped.
Last edited by 85vet; Jan 30, 2007 at 12:23 PM.
Le Mans Master
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From: No Opti Here Tn
St. Jude Donor '06
Your engine is not a flat tappan cam/lifters. It's non-roller engines that have to be concerned. You have roller lifters so any oil will be fine.
Sorry, I can't see a problem with a tranny. The issue with the new oils relates mainly to the Zinc that sacrifices itself between tthe flat tappan lifter and the cam. Without the zinc to ride on the cam can get wiped.
Sorry, I can't see a problem with a tranny. The issue with the new oils relates mainly to the Zinc that sacrifices itself between tthe flat tappan lifter and the cam. Without the zinc to ride on the cam can get wiped.
Anybody who knows what they are talking about please feel free to ring in here
Safety Car
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From: Hinckley Ohio
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Southgate Mi.
It's due to the reduced amount of Zinc added to current blends of oils. With flat tappet cams it reduces friction, without it there's more of a metal to metal. Go to CompCams site they had a article on it. The Zinc produces more emissions, and kills the cats quicker so the OEMs wanted it reduced.
They are going to reduce the amount in diesel oils this year too. I've been seeing this subject in alot mags recently. I'm concerned because my 86 is a non roller motor.
But as usual, I could be wrong, (bad boy's weekend head is still swimming in alcohol,admn snowmobiles).
They are going to reduce the amount in diesel oils this year too. I've been seeing this subject in alot mags recently. I'm concerned because my 86 is a non roller motor.
But as usual, I could be wrong, (bad boy's weekend head is still swimming in alcohol,admn snowmobiles).
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Le Mans Master
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From: No Opti Here Tn
St. Jude Donor '06
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From: SE NY
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When I got my '88 at 96k miles I switched to Quaker State full synthetic; it now has 175k miles and still pulls strong down the 1/4 mile with no oil usage. It has full roller lifters & rockers.
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From: Southgate Mi.
94 ZR, go to the Comp tech pages. Scroll way down to the GM section (about 7/8's of the way down) the article's name is "When good cams go bad" it ran in Hot Rod. It seems alot of people weren't aware of the change in oils and started eatting cams.
Sorry I didn't get back sooner, I saw an article aboout getting 530 HP out of a 460 Ford, and got caught up! (I 've got one in my boat, and it's time to freshen it up).
Sorry I didn't get back sooner, I saw an article aboout getting 530 HP out of a 460 Ford, and got caught up! (I 've got one in my boat, and it's time to freshen it up).
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,284
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From: Jacksonville, FL
St. Jude Donor '08 thru '26
On another note our LT5's are flat tappet lifters. The lt5 doesn't use a roller cam....there are no rocker arms....the cam lobe acts directly on the lifter which acts directly on the valve stem. Therefore this issue is of importance to all of the BOTB. One solution would be to mix GM diff additive in with the motor oil....mix very well into one qt and pour it in. The active ingredient in the GM diff additive is moly-di-sulfide, which is also the active ingredient in "assembly lube"...major difference being the "vehicle" that the moly-lube is suspended in. The assembly lube is designed to be a cream or paste to stay on stuff when you assemble, the diff additive is designed to be suspended in solution, the gear oil.
The mixing of diff additive I got from some old time wrenchs waaaay back in the 70's. They used to say at least every few oil changes on "solid" lifter motors was a good practice to get into....they also suggested adding it to the fluid for your M22 if you did a lot of "road work".
Tom
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Mexico Beach FL
Correct me if I am wrong, but the ZR-1 doesn't have cam bearings -- the cams ride on the aluminum bore in the cylinder head.
If I am correct, this would seem to indicate that there isn't much "load" on the cam and maybe the newer oils wouldn't be that harsh on them.
But, then again, the aluminum bore the cam journal rides in may wear.
Tom Piper
If I am correct, this would seem to indicate that there isn't much "load" on the cam and maybe the newer oils wouldn't be that harsh on them.
But, then again, the aluminum bore the cam journal rides in may wear.
Tom Piper
Le Mans Master
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From: CLT, North Carolina
There are three critical areas due to high heat and or pressure and difficulty in getting sufficient lubricant to those sites: top ring sliding contact surfaces, pin bores and flat tappet cam lobes. I noticed some OEM pistons are specifying anodized top ring lands to combat microwelding and this in conjunction with roller tappets probably was necessary to permit use of new low ZDDP oils. Adding a bottle of GM EOS oil supplement to the oil would solve the problem in most cases but you have to know how the detergent package was formulated. From memory from a study we performed several years ago the ZDDP reacts with heat to form protective sacrificial sulfates on the critical surfaces when the oil chemistry was formulated to promote sulfates. There is more than one way to formulate a detergent package and some oils will react adversely with ZDDT to form destrictive sulfides instead. Perhaps someone knowledgeable about this can expound on it. I think Castrol may be a repackager and does not own an oil refinery.
Last edited by Greg Gore; Jan 31, 2007 at 12:39 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: MD
The builder of my 383 told me to do this. Use high quality, non-synthetic 10w-30 and add a bottle of STP additive at every oil change. I haven't fired the engine yet, but I've got Valvoline 10w-30 with no extra additives in it and I've got STP which is basically pure zinc-sulphate additive.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,284
Likes: 51
From: Jacksonville, FL
St. Jude Donor '08 thru '26
Correct me if I am wrong, but the ZR-1 doesn't have cam bearings -- the cams ride on the aluminum bore in the cylinder head.
If I am correct, this would seem to indicate that there isn't much "load" on the cam and maybe the newer oils wouldn't be that harsh on them.
But, then again, the aluminum bore the cam journal rides in may wear.
Tom Piper
If I am correct, this would seem to indicate that there isn't much "load" on the cam and maybe the newer oils wouldn't be that harsh on them.
But, then again, the aluminum bore the cam journal rides in may wear.
Tom Piper
Tom
Thread Starter
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From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
Synthetics with the latest API ratings won't have any more friction additives than conventional oils with the same ratings. Same with racing oils.
We'll have to find oils with the older API ratings to get the old protection. (They are up to, what, SL now?)
The way I understand it, friction modifiers have been steadily decreased over the last decade or so, with each new API rating the oils offer less and less ZDDP package.
Is STP really a concentrated ZDDP package, or just thick oil???
What does Bobstheoilguy say??
Larry
code5coupe
We'll have to find oils with the older API ratings to get the old protection. (They are up to, what, SL now?)
The way I understand it, friction modifiers have been steadily decreased over the last decade or so, with each new API rating the oils offer less and less ZDDP package.
Is STP really a concentrated ZDDP package, or just thick oil???
What does Bobstheoilguy say??
Larry
code5coupe
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 3,504
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From: Mexico Beach FL
Yes, no cam bearings. The cam cover + the cyl head form the circle or what would be the web to put a bearing in. I don't know how much load the bearing surface is subjected to, actually I've no clue. I would think tha valve springs that allow 6800 rpms would have a fairly high PSI rating?? We don't have lash adj as the lifters are hydraulic, that much I know for sure. ....
Tom
Tom
So, wouldn't a push rod engine with a 1.5 ratio rocker put 1.5 times the spring pressure on the cam lobe.
Where, the ZR1, with no rocker arms, wouldn't multiply the spring pressure.
Therefore, with less pressure, maybe this wouldn't be a problem on the LT5 engine. And, with more, and smaller, valves per cylinder, each valve spring may not need to be as strong.
Just a theory.....
Tom Piper