Thanks Mike, I'm not arguing about oil temps. My oil is always a little warmer than my coolant. And I understand about cold air improving HP. But you will never convince me that keeping engine coolant up around 220 to 230 is good. It is good for emissions and nothing else. I was enjoying this discussion until a couple of posters became very rude and ignorant. I see why you were kicked off for a while CFI and JFB must be short for Just Friggin Bull.

 

im no expert but i think both arguments have good valid points. i dont understand the heat =more hp thing though. if that is true why use an aluminum head? aluminum dissipates heat faster then steel. if the more heat= more hp is true wouldnt these companies making performance heads use steel instead of aluminum? wouldnt a steel block be better then an aluminum block and so on? it is true ya need heat to run an engine. it is true that a warmer engine starts up easier. but theres got to be a certain point or degree value where more heat=more hp isnt true. theres in the way i see it a point where the heat itself doesnt do anything for ya because its already above the point of ignition. i just put in a high flow edelbrock water pump 160* t stat and 185*fan switch because my car was overheating and undrivable. my car no longer overheats cause of new parts and is drivable. does that make it right not necesarily but for the moment its working for me.

 

It makes no difference what metal the heads are made of because the heat radiated is identical. Aluminum conducts heat better than iron, but it doesn't make much difference because the heat flow is dominated by the difference in temperature between the combustion gases and the coolant. Put a pressure gauge on two sealed metal cans and heat only one of them up. The pressure is higher in the hotter can. The coolant removes heat from the cylinder during its power stroke which reduces its temperature and therefore, also its pressure. Lower cylinder pressure results in lower force on the piston and likewise, lower crankshaft torque and lower hp. The lower temperature your coolant is, the more heat it removes from the cylinder and less hp the engine can develope. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

Will you please let it go! Can't you take a hint. No one is interested in your BS.

 

your right about pressure being greater in the heated up can i understand this. but heat is used to ignite the fuel. once all the fuel is ignited the extra heat beyond ignition point is going to give you how much hp per lets say 10* of heat? in the end is a 10- 20* loss in temp going to affect hp by a verry noticable diff? im not trying to say your wrong. im not even saying cooler is better. i just dont believe that a cooler engine is going to affect hp by so much to be all that concerned with. now the argument that the cooler engine wont burn contaminants as effictively causing sludge would be higher on my concern list then loosing 2 hp because my engine runs a lil cooler.

 

What no one is interested in is your showing everyone that you do not know how automobile internal combustion engines work. I am surprised that you still want to keep showing us how ignorant you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You just keep making a fool of yourself, every post!!!!!!!!!!

Reread CFI's last post, it is the best post here!!!

 

i think jfb and kool88 need to agree to disagree and go have a beer shake hands and forget about it lol


im not trying to say im the smartest person around or that i know how everything works im just trying to put out my views and opinions and what im thinking is right in the hopes that 1. ive learned something new 2 ive learned wheather what i know or think i know is right or wrong. 3. maybe if im lucky actually teach someone else something new. 4. if all else fails hopefully ive gotten a fun decent harmless discusion. in the end this should be fun intellegent and hopefully everyone should get along. what good comes from name calling or bickering back and forth over whos the smartest cat in the land. way i see it everyone has something to teach and something to learn

 

Scooter, auto engines are not very efficient. Of the available energy in gasoline, only 30% gets converted to horsepower. Where does the rest of the energy go? Almost all of the 70% loss of energy is taken out of the engine by the coolant and into the air by the radiator.
If you will recall, several years ago in the news, was a proposal to build auto engines all out of ceramic parts and with no cooling system. It was predicted the engines would run at 3000 degrees F and would be much more fuel efficient because no heat energy would be lost through the radiator. The temperature of the air/fuel mixture during the power stroke is about 3000 F and this heats the cylinder walls and on the other side of the cylinder wall is moving coolant which carries away heat. The rate that heat passes through the cylinder wall is directly proportional to the difference temperature between the hot gases and the coolant. If you lower the coolant temp, you take more heat out of the burning fuel/air, and you lower the gas temperature and also the pressure (just like the cold can and the hot can). Lower pressure results in lower force on the piston, making lower torque and lower HP. Yes, you can measure the difference in HP when you change the coolant temp! I have posted many times that Continental Motors ran an experiment about 1970 with several small engines. They measured the bores, then ran each engine at maximum hp and they controlled the coolant temp from 160 to 240 F in steps with several engines all identical. They found that the engines developed higher HP for increasing temp. They found that fuel consumption increased with decreasing temp. They tore down the engines and found that bore size increased with decreasing temperature.
Also, in one of Smokey Yunich's books, he said that stock cars run their engines around 230 to 250 F because they make higher horsepower in that temperature range.

 

JFB, you seem to think that CFI knows everything. You and him agree that the coolant takes HP and puts it into the radiator. That a car has to run very hot to produce maximum HP. You and CFI have argued this point and agree that a 160 thermost will rob a car of HP. Why does CFI make this statement ? "Except, possibly for some specialized purpose, like racing, stay away from a 160° thermostat in an L98" You two act like you know everything and feel you have a responsibility to educate non-mechanics. But you both make such silly statements that make no sense. I agree that oil should be at 210-220 degrees but not coolant. Just look at some of the old muscle cars. They made HP without running hot. That all changed when the EPA got involved. I admit that I don't know much about cars. I ask questions and get very good advise from most members here. I also give advise only when I feel it is accurate. I am tired of reading a bunch of BS. Stop wasting my time. I want accurate information not nonsense.

 

Show me where I said CFI knows everything!!! I didn't. I cannot, and I doubt CFI can think of any situation where a 160 stat is useful in L98 engines. CFI only suggested racing as a POSSIBLE use of a 160 stat, he didn't say racers use 160 stats.
Show me any silly statements I have made, and yes, when I see incorrect information posted, I offer the truth. No one is obligated to increase their knowledge on this forum, but at least the information is available and you can decide to make use of it or continue believing bad incorrect ideas. That is why this forum exists. Nothing I have claimed about 160 stats is in the BS catagory!
I cannot waste your time, only YOU can do that, and why do it if it bothers you?
15 posts up you declared that, "This is the end of this discussion". Why don't you keep your word?

CFI said it best, and I quote him here:
Do some studying on the subject and come back with some intelligent, informed, discussion, rather than arguing principles you don't grasp.

 

OK ,have you heard of Fel-pro? They make head gaskets. See what they say in the very first sentence about normal operating temperatures. Anything over 220 degress according to Fel-pro is too hot. My coolant stay about 180-190 under normal conditions. I'm sure in the summer with the AC on it will run hotter, maybe hit 210 degrees. This is right where I want it to be. My oil temps are normal and I use synthetic. So don't take my advise, I don't care. But oil breaks down at 250 degrees. According to the experts you can damage your engine above 220 degrees. So run your engine hot it's fine with me. You two think you know everything. I would save this information. Your gonna need it. Here is the link to this website. http://www.members.aol.com/agspeed/overheating.htm Now read this:

OVERHEATING
Content referenced from Fel-Pro

WHEN AN ENGINE OVERHEATS
Engines are designed to operate within a "normal" temperature range of about 190 to 220
degrees F. A relatively consistent operating temperature is absolutely essential for proper
emissions control, good fuel economy and performance.

If the engine overheats and exceeds its normal operating range, the elevated temperatures
can cause extreme stress in the cylinder head which may result in a head gasket failure.
This is especially true with aluminum cylinder heads because aluminum expands about two
to three times as much as cast iron when it gets hot. The difference in thermal expansion
rates between an aluminum head and cast iron block combined with the added stress
caused by overheating can cause the head to warp. This, in turn, may lead to a loss of
clamping force in critical areas and allow the head gasket to leak.

What else can happen when an engine overheats? Coolant can boil out of the radiator and
be lost. Pistons swell inside their cylinders and can scuff or seize. Valve stems can swell in
their guides and also scuff or seize. This, in turn, may damage valve train components
(broken rocker arms, bent pushrods, etc.) or possibly result in damaging contact between
the valve head and piston if the valve sticks open. Valve lifters can also stick, possibly
causing a valve to remain open a little too long. Bearings can seize. Cylinder heads can
crack (especially if someone dumps cold water into the radiator in an attempt to "cool off"
the engine). Combustion chambers can become so hot that a spark is no longer needed to
ignite the fuel, leading to a condition known as "preignition" where the engine misfires and
runs erratically. Air/fuel mixtures are upset, and gasoline becomes less able to resist
detonation. Oil thins out and is less able to protect the engine's internal components against
friction and wear.


Use a straight edge and feeler gauge to check the
flatness of the face of the cylinder head and block
deck for warpage before replacing the head gasket.


IF AN ENGINE HAS OVERHEATED...
If a head gasket has failed as a result of severe engine overheating, both the face of the
cylinder head and block deck should be checked for warpage -- and resurfaced if needed
to restore flatness prior to replacing the head gasket. If the face of the head and/or block
deck are not flat and are not resurfaced when the head gasket is replaced, the new head
gasket will be unevenly loaded and will likely leak or fail.

Flatness can be checked by placing a straight edge on the face of the cylinder head or
block, and then using a feeler gauge to check any gaps between the straight edge and head
or block. If the amount of warpage exceeds the following maximum limits, the head or
block is not flat enough to hold a good seal against the head gasket and should be
resurfaced:

 

i got tired of the pressure cooker heat in my 87. i put in a high flow 180tstat and wired both fans to a 200deg sensor. works great keeps temps between 180 and 200.

 

That's about perfect.

 

And therein lies the root of the problem. Proof positive ("you will never convince me") that Kool88vette's mind is made up. He wants to hear nothing of the facts, he is not open to learning anything. Even with no knowledge of the subject, he has shut himself off from learning anything. There is no point in presenting further facts, his mind is made up. The epitome of a closed mind.


Show me one example of where "a couple of posters" were "ignorant". I think I see where this is headed.

For the record, I was never "kicked off". I was put on "moderation" , a situation where all posts have to be approved by a moderator before they appear on the forum, for a period of two weeks. I was offended by that and decided to take a sabbatical. The reason for that moderation period had nothing to do with posting false information. It was because I became impatient with bull headed ignoramuses, kind of like here. Only so far, I have kept my temper.



Sorry. There are not two sides of the "fact" coin. The potential energy of gasoline is converted to kinetic heat energy. The heat causes the gases within the cylinder to expand and the pressure of the expanding gases forces the piston down. Less heat = less expansion = less force against the piston = less power at the crank shaft. It could hardly be simpler.



It isn't That easy. This isn't a matter of opinion, like what is the best color for a Corvette. This discussion is concerned with principles of physics. Principles not understood by all in this thread.



You can take THAT to the bank.

All the facts have been presented. I am not going to waste my time trying to move the immovable object of a closed mind and ingnorance. You an lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

RACE ON!!!

 

These type of posts almost always end up like this. May I offer the following for reading and education.

http://performanceunlimited.com/illu...ermostats.html

 

You are ignorant of the facts. Read the Fel-pro website again. Argue with them.

 

view that graph with a healthy dose of skepticism....

i`ve stated this before on other forums where this graph has popped up, that i doubt its accuracy. was it really based on a "50 hour test"? and if so, how long ago? 50 years ago? 60? more?
and what were the conditions of the test?

the reason i doubt its relavence to modern engines, is that i have seen many 15-20 year old engines, with over 100,000, sometimes over 200,000 miles on them, that almost certainly have over 50 hours of run time on them at under, sometime well under 100 deg. operating temps on them, from cold start operation...
only to find little, if any significant wear on the cylinder walls... many, you can still see the factory honing patterns all the way around the top of the cylinder walls...

a few minutes a day, every day, of cold start operation, at say under 140 deg. over the course of a year, five, ten, even fifteen plus years, adds up to lots of hours of cold operation....
yet you rarely see an engine with anywhere near the kind of cylinder wear indicated by that graph....

i`ve heard stories from people who have worked on marine engines for decades, tell about seeing 20 year old V8 inboard engines with over 7000 hours of run time on them, that were still in good mechanical condition, and still running well. they never used a thermostat, and likely rarely saw operating temps above 140 degrees....

 

Ignorant of what facts? Talk about the pot calling the kettle, black! I have tried to help educate you but you are too closed minded to be helped. I should argue with Fel-Pro? Why? They never denied that heat is energy and that energy makes power. I haven't argued with anyone. I have only presented facts that you don't care to listen to. And I have tried to illustrate they are true by presenting reason and logic. I will not continue to try to convince you. Your mind is made up and you won't be swayed by truth and facts. That attitude is the reason the world was considered to be flat for so long. Or do still believe that it is? You appear to be a lost cause.

You quoted a long post of mine where I presented no arguments. What was the point of quoting me, when you made no reference to anything in the post. What statement in what you quoted contradicted something from Fel-Pro?

RACE ON!!!

 

You know, everything is open to enterpretation BigLee, yes even this particular graph...same can be said about many other studies showing/stating the same results. But I do need to correct you on the marine engines...that my friend I've had at least 20 years of experience with. First off marine engines, inboards or inboard outboard engines do in fact use a thermostat, and operating temps are very close to 180-190, further more most gas powered marine engines with 7000 hours, provided there not a single engine trawler (limited to around 8-10 knot) are well past rebuild time, twin V8s (350's) like my last yatch which was capable of 28 knots are usually do for a rebuild between 3500-4000 hours. I've owned 3. Think I've been there.And remember, a boat like mine needs to be turning 3000-3500 Rpms for a mere 28 knots. Now if you were talking diesels that's a different story.

 

Nice, guess what? according to that all you did was waste your money, and shortened the life of your fans and alt.

My 100% factory original cooling system runs 192* all day long.