E85 conversion for boosted cars????
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Honolulu, HI
E85 conversion for boosted cars????
Just a thought I had.....
....With E85 popping up all around me I was wondering if running more boost, or more reliable timing curves on my Procharged LT1 would be possible with doing a conversion.
I'm not sure what's involved with converting, maybe new injectors, fuel filter, and some miscellanous seals. I know it's possible on most modern EFI cars to do this.
Does anyone think we could benefit due to the higher octane (~100 from E85)
....With E85 popping up all around me I was wondering if running more boost, or more reliable timing curves on my Procharged LT1 would be possible with doing a conversion.
I'm not sure what's involved with converting, maybe new injectors, fuel filter, and some miscellanous seals. I know it's possible on most modern EFI cars to do this.
Does anyone think we could benefit due to the higher octane (~100 from E85)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
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From: Jackson MI
It can be done, I know people that do it. The key is that you need to run a 10:1 or lower a/f ratio. Its a different hydro carbo than gas so you need more of it for the same amount of air going into the engine.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 11,268
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From: Honolulu, HI
That's what I"m finding out. A Co-worker of mine is going to put it in his Subie STI. He ran it in his 10 second Civic for 10k miles.
He said they run at about 7:1 AFR and Stoich is 9.6 or something (equal to 14.7:1)
Apparently you need more fuel but I think my Walbro would be ok if I got a boost-a-pump. Hopefully my fuel lines will be ok. I'll probably have to jump up to 36 or 42 pound injectors too.
It would be nice to run 12 pounds of boost at full timing.
I have a stock mill LT1 though so I'm not sure how it will hold up.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Honolulu, HI
Wow! ... I knew you needed more fuel but %40 more to make the same power with gasoline? Ouch, that puts you up to 100 octane gasoline prices at the difference in MPG.
For example:
E85 @ 3.00 a gallon + %40 = $4.20 a gallon comparatively to about $5.00 a gallon for 100 octane gasoline. hmmmmm.
Maybe it's not worth it afterall.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,150
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From: Timra, Sweden
Wow! ... I knew you needed more fuel but %40 more to make the same power with gasoline? Ouch, that puts you up to 100 octane gasoline prices at the difference in MPG.
For example:
E85 @ 3.00 a gallon + %40 = $4.20 a gallon comparatively to about $5.00 a gallon for 100 octane gasoline. hmmmmm.
Maybe it's not worth it afterall.
For example:
E85 @ 3.00 a gallon + %40 = $4.20 a gallon comparatively to about $5.00 a gallon for 100 octane gasoline. hmmmmm.
Maybe it's not worth it afterall.
You can expect about 15% to 20% increase in fuel consumption for normal driving.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 11,268
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From: Honolulu, HI
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From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Honolulu, HI
Considering I drive an SRT10 RAM and a 300C SRT8 that's not too intuitive of an observation now is it?
I was pretty clear about what I was getting at, but since you guys didn't get my point before I'll try to explain again:
If E85 needs 40% more fuel for me to run reliably at what 100 octane gasoline would, considering the fuel needs increase by going to E85 it's a simple math equation.
If it's relatively the same price per gallon between the two based on power per gallon output then it doesn't make sense to convert.
It would be easier to just stick with 100 octane gas.
Understand now?
By your guys' rationale since we run boosted cars we should just run 114 octane at $9.00 right?
Why invest time an money into something that won't be more cost effective?
With that said, it does look like E85 is worth running since it WILL be more cost effective than just 100 octane gasoline.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2004
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I say pick a fuel that you can find everywhere and inject a little something special when under boost (the only time it really matters anyway). Why change your primary fuel type, re-tune, change injectors, etc, etc. when you are only going to see the benefits 3% of the time you are driving??
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2005
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You might find this read interesting, turbo fed V8 running E85:
http://www.theturboforums.com/e85dyno.php
http://www.theturboforums.com/e85dyno.php
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,259
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From: bakersfield cali
Considering I drive an SRT10 RAM and a 300C SRT8 that's not too intuitive of an observation now is it?
I was pretty clear about what I was getting at, but since you guys didn't get my point before I'll try to explain again:
If E85 needs 40% more fuel for me to run reliably at what 100 octane gasoline would, considering the fuel needs increase by going to E85 it's a simple math equation.
If it's relatively the same price per gallon between the two based on power per gallon output then it doesn't make sense to convert.
It would be easier to just stick with 100 octane gas.
Understand now?
By your guys' rationale since we run boosted cars we should just run 114 octane at $9.00 right?
Why invest time an money into something that won't be more cost effective?
With that said, it does look like E85 is worth running since it WILL be more cost effective than just 100 octane gasoline.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,413
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From: The Old Dominion
The limiter on just about any combustion engine is air. With ethanol, you don't need as much air for each amount of fuel, thus with the same "breathing" or volume of air, you can make more power. I believe ethanol has less engery per amount than gasoline, but this is more than compensated for by the extra amount of ethanol you can burn in a given amount of air.
I don't know the exact math in terms of how much less energy and how much more is needed, but I believe it's a favorable result in terms of power produced (not in terms of MPG). It's the same sort of benefit nitromethane has for top fuel cars, though the actual numbers are a lot different for that, and of course you can't go to the corner station and get nitromethane.
An E85 conversion sounds pretty cool to me, if you do it be sure to post up the details!
I suspect you'd need to change some fuel line components like seals, and you may need to change the gas tank. Ethanol I believe will corrode rubber seals and liners and stuff, so you need something made to withstand it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,413
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From: The Old Dominion
If ethanol makes 10% less energy than a given amount of gas, but you can put 40% more of it in with a given amount of air, then for a motor that breaths in a set amount of air, you could make 1.4*.9 as much power, or a 26% increase. Again I don't know if the numbers are quite that favorable, but you get the idea hopefully.
And if the fuel is more resistant to knock, perhaps you can up the compression or up the boost and thus have an even greater gain over setting the car up for gasoline. The fact that E85 is relatively common makes it an even bigger plus over something like race gas that for most people is not easy to find.
I believe I'm explaining the idea accurately, but I'm sure you all will let me know if I'm not.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 11,268
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From: Honolulu, HI
Nope, Sorry, you missed mine again, but it looks like he finally got it. I say pick a fuel that you can find everywhere and inject a little something special when under boost (the only time it really matters anyway). Why change your primary fuel type, re-tune, change injectors, etc, etc. when you are only going to see the benefits 3% of the time you are driving??
Good point.
It's not purely about money, it's about my TIME!
But you guys crack me up that for some reason money shouldn't be an issue EVER...Seriously....Come on now...Let's not get carried away.
Last edited by vvv90; Jun 6, 2007 at 05:54 PM.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 11,268
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From: Honolulu, HI
I think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Power per gallon probably isn't the metric the OP is using. Total power is. I'm making up numbers here for convenience, but hopefully they aren't too far off of reality.
If ethanol makes 10% less energy than a given amount of gas, but you can put 40% more of it in with a given amount of air, then for a motor that breaths in a set amount of air, you could make 1.4*.9 as much power, or a 26% increase. Again I don't know if the numbers are quite that favorable, but you get the idea hopefully.
And if the fuel is more resistant to knock, perhaps you can up the compression or up the boost and thus have an even greater gain over setting the car up for gasoline. The fact that E85 is relatively common makes it an even bigger plus over something like race gas that for most people is not easy to find.
I believe I'm explaining the idea accurately, but I'm sure you all will let me know if I'm not.
If ethanol makes 10% less energy than a given amount of gas, but you can put 40% more of it in with a given amount of air, then for a motor that breaths in a set amount of air, you could make 1.4*.9 as much power, or a 26% increase. Again I don't know if the numbers are quite that favorable, but you get the idea hopefully.
And if the fuel is more resistant to knock, perhaps you can up the compression or up the boost and thus have an even greater gain over setting the car up for gasoline. The fact that E85 is relatively common makes it an even bigger plus over something like race gas that for most people is not easy to find.
I believe I'm explaining the idea accurately, but I'm sure you all will let me know if I'm not.
Now this is constructive conversation.
I need to learn more about the math but from another person I know that runs it they're at a 7-9AFR which shows a definite increase in pure fuel consumption at WOT based on a difference of say a 10-12AFR for the same power using gasoline. I think he is wrong though. I'm sure based on using more fuel power would increase.
So guys, this is why I brought it up....For OPEN DISCUSSION. I just want to learn more....Not because I'm definitely doing it, but I'll most likely need to pick up more shifts at McDonald's if I'm to pay for this.
Last edited by vvv90; Jun 6, 2007 at 06:03 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,413
Likes: 9
From: The Old Dominion
I need to learn more about the math but from another person I know that runs it they're at a 7-9AFR which shows a definite increase in pure fuel consumption at WOT based on a difference of say a 10-12AFR for the same power using gasoline. I think he is wrong though. I'm sure based on using more fuel power would increase.
I think if you want to do that, then yes you definitely need to find out what the real numbers are and what the real power gains you can expect are.
And you're right, cost is an issue. You have to be able to afford it. That said, you shouldn't compare the cost of running the car on gas vs running it on E85. You should look at what it would cost to make the same power another way.
If say your engine made 500hp on gasoline, maybe 550 on race gas with the boost up, and 600hp on E85 due to more fuel and maybe more boost (again, totally guessing on these purely for example), then you need to compare the cost of E85 to the cost of making your 500hp motor make 600hp on pump gas, or how to make your 550hp race gas motor make 50 more hp.
Otherwise if you compare power per consumption or power per gallon, keeping it stock would be the math winner. It would likely make the most efficient use of each gallon of gasoline. Cost per hp is the metric I think you'd want to use. How much hp can you afford, and what method has the most power for the cost.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,150
Likes: 304
From: Timra, Sweden
An example, a SAAB turbo that can run both on gasoline and E85.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...o_premier.html
With E85 (the computer allows more boost) the power increases by 14% and tourqe increases by 11%. You can assume that they adjust boost to have about the same safety margins on the engine regardles of fuel.
14% more power is a significant differance. If you start at 500 hp then it is a 70hp increase using E85.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...o_premier.html
With E85 (the computer allows more boost) the power increases by 14% and tourqe increases by 11%. You can assume that they adjust boost to have about the same safety margins on the engine regardles of fuel.
14% more power is a significant differance. If you start at 500 hp then it is a 70hp increase using E85.
