I emailed Tim Dyer at LPE the other day with my concerns about the superram and nitrous. The Superram being a huge box is almost like the LT5 plenum, which I've seen blow up a few times thanks to what I assume is nitrous puddling. I've been looking into doing direct port injection instead of a throttle body system.


Here is my email....

Quote:

Good afternoon Tim,

I don't know if you remember me from purchases made on the phone, but my current project of building up a 1987 Corvette L98 engine will be using many LPE products. After this stage of modifications is done, there will be a
nitrous system of some sorts added to the car as well.
The Suprram plenum being the size that is is (sort of like the LT5 in a
way) has me a bit worried about puddling effects and blowing the lid off.
Does LPE have any past experience in using a direct port nitrous kit on the
Superram, and if so do you offer for sale a "kit" put together for it?

Thank you for your time and knowledge,

Brian Day

Here is what I got back.....

Quote:

Brian,

The direct port style NOS systems are not to much of a problem. I would
suggest changing lids to the billet aluminum lid which is stronger just in
case.

The plate systems that spray fuel and NOS from behind the throttle body
could cause a possible problem.

The lid sells for $151.00.

Thanks,

Tim Dyer

[Modified by scorp508, 11:09 AM 10/24/2001]

 

Scorp-
I too have pondered this. It seems to me like the cylinders 1-4 would get more nitrous to them leaving 5-8 high and dry. I just can't see that the TB fogger system being that effective on the SR. Theres just too much space. Direct port would be the way to go if I was to do it.

 

Kind of a dissapointing reply really. I dunno but it sounds like Tim wants to sell another intake lid. I guess what it comes down to is that if you don't outlay enough money with them then its not worth their time to assist you on a technical level. Whether you blow the lid open or not, pre-ignition of the nitrous/fuel mix before it hits the combustion chamber is not something you want.

I have a similar setup in mind for my car further down the track so I'm quite interested in this. How much room is there for a direct port setup with a Super Ram anyway (especially if I wanted it hidden)? I wouldn't have any interest in using it on the street but I'd want to hide it to avoid hassles when getting pulled over (if they can't see it they won't ask about whether it's hooked up or not).

 

I dunno, it is about what I expected to get back from them. Tim is a good honest guy from what I have heard of him, and from dealing with him in the past. The billet lid is a good idea, there is no doubting that.

Just being able to extract "a possible problem" was good enough for me.

 

The guy I bought my Superram from had drilled and tapped eight holes in the side of the plenum right above each runner. He had an injector nozzle pointing down into the runner. There is not enough material to screw the nozzle into on the wall of the plenum, so he attached some aluminum plates on the inside of the plenum to thicken the walls of the plenum.

I didn't like the idea of the nuts coming loose inside the plenum, and had the holes welded up.

I guess his idea would have worked, if the plates had been welded to the inside of the plenum and not bolted on. I wish I would have taken a picture of it, but you get the idea.

He says a guy a LPE told him that was the only way to stop fuel puddling and distribution problems.

Let me know if you think this will work, and I will try and explain it in more detail.

I was just going to put a TB kit on mine and be done with it.

 

Brian,

Bill C over on the C5 board had an LPE 420 with NOS. Dry System. NEVER had a single problem. I don't know the elaborate details..but I saw the car go...and it was impressive. If you set it up right, you shouldn't have a problem. I can give you his E mail and you can ask a few questions.

I was going to get the skinny from Him and do my system the same as His was. I chickened out! :yesnod: I don't have the nads to toy with NOS I guess.

JD

 

How does a Billet lid Help?

 

I would guess that the added strength in the center of the lid would help it from a "jiffypop" sort of thing happening in the center. :)

 

Something has to give right? so if not the lid what?

Does the lid give before blowing out the TB?

Puddling should only be a problem if you slam the TB shut, if you disengage the NOS before letting out you should never have a problem, Right?

 

If I understand Scorp's question correctly, I've been running the exact setup he asked Tim at Lingenfelter about. I'm using the same lid on my intake that Lingenfelter put on when he built my engine in 1993. I've been running the NOS since September of 1987. I have never experienced any problem with this setup except temptation. The NOS kit was one listed as working on the LT-1 Camaro as NOS didn't have a Vette specific kit at the time. It's a 125 or 150 (can't remember) horsepower kit. The Nitrous nozzle is in the bottom of the rubber intake tube that goes from the radiator to the throttle body. It's directly above the thermostat housing, so a tight fit.

I've run this setup at the strip, probably around 50 runs a year and I'm not shy about street use at all. Since '97 I've not had to go beyond the early part of second gear to convince most of the street guys that they've chosen the wrong old man to challenge! My NOS kit was installed by real pros, one of only two shops in Omaha that are allowed to touch my car. You will absolutely need an MSD ignition box and I wouldn't even consider not adding the NOS high performance fuel pump in the line in addition to the stock pump in the tank. I can't say everyone would have the great luck I have, but if installed properly and used with common sense, I believe even a stock engine could handle it. I have spoken to Tim at Lingenfelter many times over the years and he's always been a great help and given me good advice, although I will say that Lingenfelter in general is not a fan of nitrous from my experience working with them.

 

The billet SR lids I have seen look like stock lids that have had their "ribs" shaved off. Would the billet lid really have a higher tensile strength than the cast lid? and jeesus....$150????? :rolleyes: They only way I could see a direct port system with a SR is going under the plenum and leading into the back of the runners. Their is barely enough room under and around the SR as it is.

 

Dwaltz,

Please tell more. You have had one of the best success stories of NOS that I have heard. Forgive me as I am a bit of a newbie to NOS. I have heard mostly horror stories of destroyed engines due to improper set up and lack of knowledgeable monitoring of the NOS system/engine.

I understand the theory, but lack the practical knowledge to make informed decisions. My questions are:

1) How often and what maintenance/monitoring do you need to do to make sure you are not going to put a nasty hole in your piston?

2) What MSD Ignition model is necessary? There are dozens of them for various purposes. I am a street only driver, no track, just an occasional STOP thrill for me :) Hope that helps.

3) I do not understand how a secondary pump can move any more fuel than the first pump in the tank can provide. Why wouldn't you just get a bigger replacement pump for the tank?

4) What exactly are the pros and cons to a wet/dry system. I think I understand the basics but I could be wrong. From what I understand a wet system injects at each cylinder, but a dry fogs behind the throttle body. Please correct me if I am wrong. I can understand the advantages of the wet, but can not judge the expense and PITA factor against occasional use. A knowledgeable prospective would help.

5) I do understand I need to run a cooler sparkplug. But I am not sure how to detect the early signs of a deadly mis-configuration.

6) I have an aged engine, 1992 LT1 with 75K on it. I believe it has had Mobil1 all it's live but I am the 3rd owner and can't be sure. I never had the heads off to determine wear. Nor have I tested the compression. Lets assume the compression is within normal GM specified tolerance. I would test before moving forward.

Anyone else who wants to chime in is welcome!

Thanks
Jay

 

Jay - I'm not a mechanic and I had my NOS installed by a friend that owns a restoration shop that has done most of the work on my Vette. I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

1. Regarding maintainance, all I have ever done is have my plugs changed every other year. Biggest danger is that the NOS system is armed and someone pumps the gas pedal and fills the intake while the engine is off. Unless you pull the coil wire and pump the nitrous out of the intake by cranking the starter a while, you will have a bad bang.
2. I'm running an MSD 6A. The only thing that I wish I had was adjustable rev limiter capabilities. I think you can get the same as mine but with that feature.
3. I don't understand the workings of the second fuel pump, I only know that even with a high capacity pump installed by Lingenfelter, my installer suggested that I put in the extra pump as recommended by Nitrous Oxide Systems (NOS), as holes in pistons, etc. are usually caused by running too lean.
4. I can't explain the differences between wet and dry systems. NOS and Lingenfelter both recommended the type of installation I used to prevent "pooling" of raw fuel/nitrous in the Superram manifold air box.
5. I'm running a stock spec spark plug, but using Bosch platium units. These have worked great, they always look fine when I pull them. I change them every 2 years just because I've always changed plugs often in all my cars and I've heard that nitrous is tough on plugs.
6. I wouldn't be afraid to run a NOS setup on your engine, even with it's age, however, a call to NOS is advised. They are the experts and were very helpful to me and my installer.

I hope I've helped a little. Please take my advise and call NOS and maybe another kit maker (Nitrous Express?) and get a little more knowledgable tech answers, as I don't want to steer you wrong just because I've been lucky with my system, also remember that my engine is built for hard use vs. a stock LT-1. Good luck in whatever you do. Keep us posted!


[Modified by dwaltz, 5:59 PM 10/29/2001]

 

Thanks Dwaltz. I appreciate your time in answering my questions. If I go the Nitrous route I will definately give NOS a call.

I am so torn on what to next. So many options, none of which I really need :)

 

A "Wet System" is what you commonly hear as a "Plate System", or one that injects both N20 and fuel trough metering jets installed in a 3/8" aluminum plate that fits between your TB and intake plenum. A "Dry System" injects N20 only at the nozzle, and relies on your ECM to add the extra fuel through your existing injectors.
Since you ONLY spray N20 at WOT, that's the condition that exhibits the maximum intake air velocity (and turbulence) in the plenum so liquid pooling would seem unlikely unless the plenum had some type of baffle installed....also unlikely.
The MSD 6AL box has their "Soft Touch" rev limiter capability by swapping the small modules for your desired value. It's a good box, but not necessary for N20 alone.
Regardless of whether you add an additional pump for the system or use/upgrade your in-tank one, invest in the low fuel pressure shutoff switch! You absolutely want the N20 to stop the instant your fuel pressure drops. I installed the MSD rev switch also just to prevent spraying below 3500 rpms.
Hope this helps....

 

I will say I dont know what I am talking about here, but I have been thinking about this as well since that ZR1 post about him blowing his plenum.

Seems to me the problem would be fuel puddeling? Not the N2O?
I believe a backfire would light it up, blowing the plenum lid in some form.

Now with roots type blowers, I though they had a pop off type valve for instances when there was a backfire. Could this be used the same way on the plenum to relive the pressure?

I know a lot of blower cars still blow the whole blower off the thing as well, but could it work?

Why not just go direct port Scorp? $$$? I would rather pay for it rather then blow the lid off. :smash:

 

I would love to, but you can't jet it for less than 100hp. I'm looking for an adjustable system from 75hp before I rebuild the bottom end or stroke it out.

 

I have had a 383LPE since 1990, and the motor has never been apart for a rebuild or anything like that. I started with a NOS wet dual bar system (inbetween throttle body and plenum). This was a 150 shot, and ran great. I ran 11.0 at 128 on drag radials, hitting it in second. I have since switched to a NX Express kit with a single nozzle in the air intake tract. This works better, and gets better fuel distribution. The NOS kit actually has a tendency to lean out the back cylinders, but the Superram motors tend to run on teh rich side, so it didnt really matter. I would recommend NX Express (even though I am still angry about some solenoids I had from them!!!) single nozzle system, and not direct port. Direct port is REAL hard on your car...go out and take a look under the hood and then imagine all the extra lines and nozzles. Direct port would be great for 300+hp, but for a 150-200 hp hit, a single race nozzle system would be fine. I have run mine alot with nitrous on the street, the only time I had a problem was with a MSD Ignition Retard Kit on the old NOS system, apparently it actually advanced the ignition...boom (just some bent valves though!) I have had no problems since getting my NX Express system sorted out, and I am running 250 hp jets. With no sway bar, poly suspension, 315 BFG Comp TA tires, auto tranny, 50 mph kick on the nitrous is sideways for a while. Get the juice, and then you can play with some really fast cars on the street, and they hate getting beat by a street vette! :D

 

I will chime in because I have lots of experience in the nitrous department. Including all the way back to age 16 when my Dad told me there was noo way he would let me bolt that 250hp Cheater system on my stroked, tubbed, Liberty shifted '66 Mustang. I installed it the following weekend when he was out of town (and I am still alive).

As for the SR and the N2O, I have the following comments. I used to run a fuel psi safety switch, throttle switch, and a counter (delays activation for a predetermined time following full throttle activation). The counter was always set to run 1.7-1.8 secs following full throttle. On one run in particular, I guess I engaged the throttle switch during the burnout. I rolled to the line (remember the counter has already activated), nailed the throttle on the last amber and instant 75 hp shot at 1800 rpm. Instant boom, the car moved about 6 ft and died. The hood seemed like it lifted a good foot from closed. Got out of the car, looked under the hood. The bonnet to the air filter was cracked, the maf wire was blown off the "suspenders", the inlet tube from the maf to the TB was shredded, the top of the LPE box was lifted about 1/2" off the plenum. The car started and I drove it onto the trailer in Limp Home mode. Needless to say, I upgraded to a window switch with an adjustable lower limit chip set at 2800 rpm. The throttle switch remained. I drilled and tapped all plenum holes to a larger 1/4" size and have never looked back. Back then, with mild heads and cam, the car ran 12.90s n/a, and ran 11.80s with the 3 stage system (top stage 145 hp), on a totally stock '87 bottom end. A lot has changed over the years, and I was able to get to very low 11s with the three stage wet plate system. I now have jets that will take the system to 300 hp, but have never run it in this level of tune.

I agree with those prior that have commented on the fuel and ignition requirements. I have (and have always had) a totally dedicated fuel system just for the NOS. The system has its own fuel pump, filters, feed and return lines and regulator. I utilize an MSD6AL. These systems will work fine if you do your homework and the car is solid to start with.

I would not hesitate to install an NOS system on any of these cars aftyer doing the proper background work (compression test, leakdown, plugs, ignition, fuel system).

Best of Luck,
Aaron