What Would You Do?
Thread Starter
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
What Would You Do?
Chuck, Corvettes of Westchester, CFI-EFI, others.
Here's the story.
The motor is APART. There is no more exhaust, the heads are off.
I have the stock short block.
Here's the peices I already have:
1. 1.6 Roller Rockers
2. Super Ram
3. Exotic Muscle Headers
The headers have no AIR or EGR fittings.
What I need:
Cam, heads.
Keeping in mind I am keeping the stock short block.
I am assuming there is nothing wrong with the headers or the RRs. That they can be used no matter what I do.
If you had a stock short block to start with, what would you do.
And please, don't give me a list of the most expensive parts ever made. Let's be reasonable. My goal is 325 RWHP on a motor that is "set up" correctly and streetable.
YES, I know I will have to do the torque converter, rear end, and shift kit. That will all come in time. Right now I am simply talking about the MOTOR. Let's keep it simple.
Here's the story.
The motor is APART. There is no more exhaust, the heads are off.
I have the stock short block.
Here's the peices I already have:
1. 1.6 Roller Rockers
2. Super Ram
3. Exotic Muscle Headers
The headers have no AIR or EGR fittings.
What I need:
Cam, heads.
Keeping in mind I am keeping the stock short block.
I am assuming there is nothing wrong with the headers or the RRs. That they can be used no matter what I do.
If you had a stock short block to start with, what would you do.
And please, don't give me a list of the most expensive parts ever made. Let's be reasonable. My goal is 325 RWHP on a motor that is "set up" correctly and streetable.
YES, I know I will have to do the torque converter, rear end, and shift kit. That will all come in time. Right now I am simply talking about the MOTOR. Let's keep it simple.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
OK, here's what I am doing.
I am staying completely on plan and screw you all......( I'm kidding relax)
I spoke to a local engine builder who uses Brodix heads on many of his builds. I can pay a little extra and have the Brodix heads taken down to 58CC, this way I am giving up nothing on compression. They angle mill both the deck and the intake side.
Cost: $200
So there you have it. The build continues........Parts defined.
I am staying completely on plan and screw you all......( I'm kidding relax)
I spoke to a local engine builder who uses Brodix heads on many of his builds. I can pay a little extra and have the Brodix heads taken down to 58CC, this way I am giving up nothing on compression. They angle mill both the deck and the intake side.
Cost: $200
So there you have it. The build continues........Parts defined.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
The new heads are 180CC ports. The stock heads have 163CC ports.
The justification for the expense of the heads:
1. The cost of porting the existing heads exceeds the price of the new heads. LIngenfelter gets $1600. TPIS gets $1200. Local shop, a few hundred, at least.
2. The flow numbers are 245 on the new heads, 199 on the existing heads. I don't know if I can make up the 46 CFM through porting.
3. I can get $400 for the old heads with valve covers and valve train.
So the heads will cost me $1200 at the end of the day. Not too bad for custom heads.
The valves will be better on the new heads, they will have 5 angle valve jobs and better springs. I would have to do a spring upgrade to the existing heads, that's gonna cost me about $60.
So at the end of the day the delta between new heads and using old heads is about $500, with better, newer components. (springs, valves)
Here's flow numbers for heads..http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy
Last edited by jsup; Sep 25, 2007 at 04:55 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
Is this a factory roller block? If so, are you planning to re-use the lifters and pushrods?
Are the rockers self-aligning? Since you plan to reuse them, that's a consideration on how the heads will be setup.
What cam are you considering? Planned use of the engine?
I'd definitely go with the Brodix heads.
Jake
Are the rockers self-aligning? Since you plan to reuse them, that's a consideration on how the heads will be setup.
What cam are you considering? Planned use of the engine?
I'd definitely go with the Brodix heads.
Jake
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Is this a factory roller block? If so, are you planning to re-use the lifters and pushrods?
Are the rockers self-aligning? Since you plan to reuse them, that's a consideration on how the heads will be setup.
What cam are you considering? Planned use of the engine?
I'd definitely go with the Brodix heads.
Jake
Are the rockers self-aligning? Since you plan to reuse them, that's a consideration on how the heads will be setup.
What cam are you considering? Planned use of the engine?
I'd definitely go with the Brodix heads.
Jake
The rockers are self aligning. I have 1.6 RRs, I am not reusing the factory rockers.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by jsup
I have to buy the heads first. THEN it's $200.
The new heads are 180CC ports. The stock heads have 163CC ports.
The justification for the expense of the heads:
The new heads are 180CC ports. The stock heads have 163CC ports.
The justification for the expense of the heads:
RACE ON!!!
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
As an explanation, I had recommended jsup have his 113 heads pocket ported, just bowl work and also maybe match ported. The reasons were to save dough, maintain the higher compression ratio, and end up with a suitable head to match his needs and to help meet his goals. Since then he has done some homework on the 113 heads (with some suggestion) and also found out that he can keep his CR for a reasonable price. I am delighted to hear the intake ports in these new heads are only 180 cc. I was concerned things might get out of hand. I stand by my original recommendations, but this will possibly turn out even better. Apparently, I wasn't trying hard enough to spend his money.
RACE ON!!!
RACE ON!!!
THanks, I appreciate the advice, and I'm following it.The price difference in the heads includes new, better valves, new springs, better valve seats, and a "better" casting.
Is that worth a premium? I think so.
I can't build heads like these for that money. I'd spend say $40 a valve, or $640 extra, just to be even, not to mention the machine shop work. I am assuming I can get a shop to do it locally for a few hundred bucks, I don't even know how realistic it is.
I don't have the time to do it, I barely have the time to do what I'm doing. I'd spend less, but I'd get less too.
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Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,976
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From: San Antonio Texas
AFR heads flow much better (286cfm), and for around $1450-1500. They will cut them to 58cc too, I think. The Ligenfelter "219" cam was designed with that intake and seems to be used a lot. Cam choise depends on what you want to do with the car, and how you drive it. 3/8" pushrods are not really needed, and might have clerence problems. Your stockers are probably fine unless they're bent or something.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
AFR heads flow much better (286cfm), and for around $1450-1500. They will cut them to 58cc too, I think. The Ligenfelter "219" cam was designed with that intake and seems to be used a lot. Cam choise depends on what you want to do with the car, and how you drive it. 3/8" pushrods are not really needed, and might have clerence problems. Your stockers are probably fine unless they're bent or something.
I need 58CC chamber, angled plugs, and .560 lift. Those are the specs. Can you point me to a link that I can get that from AFR for $1400?
Thanks.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,976
Likes: 2
From: San Antonio Texas
Most all your questions can be answered in the Search section. Someone posted here a week or two ago that they found them for around $1450; don't remember who/where. Might have been Flatlanders. Shop around... do some research
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
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From: Iowa
Yeah the 3/8 rods are a waste on this build; heck even on some 700+lbs open stuff we run the premium 5/16th rods. Flow numbers are really a matter of debate when testing is not done side by side and I have had very good things to say about all the Brodix heads we use but; we use their high end heads that cost big money so I can't really chime in on that one. If you can spell out what you want the engine to do we can point you in the right direction on the cam and such. Without that though, I can't help.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
I remember the thread where he said there were $1400 AFR heads, however, I went through it at that time and I believe that they only came in straight plugs. I need angle.
I am trying to draw on the experience that is here, because there's a lot that's not in the book, and I hope to find it here.
I don't want to do this build again. Once is enough.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Yeah the 3/8 rods are a waste on this build; heck even on some 700+lbs open stuff we run the premium 5/16th rods. Flow numbers are really a matter of debate when testing is not done side by side and I have had very good things to say about all the Brodix heads we use but; we use their high end heads that cost big money so I can't really chime in on that one. If you can spell out what you want the engine to do we can point you in the right direction on the cam and such. Without that though, I can't help.
I am looking at the Brodix Race Right 180CC heads. I'll have them decked to 58CC.
On the heads I'm putting 1.6 Aluminum Scorpion Roller Rockers.
The cam will be the Accel 74219. It's a 219/219 at 500 providing 560 lift.
The intake will be the Super Ram and matching Accel base.
Exhaust is long tube 1 3/4 headers to an X pipe and dual exhaust out the back.
Finally, a good tune.
What I am looking for is a streetable 325 RWHP car, with lots of torque.
After the engine build I am looking at a Torque Converter and a shift kit.
The rear end is a 307. I know 354s or better would be better, however, I like having the car on the highway and higher gears mean higher RPMs. I'll make that decision after I finish the motor.
Last edited by jsup; Sep 25, 2007 at 09:05 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
no matter what the brand, 180cc will work well. Dont always need 280-300cfm to make a good runing street motor. I bet the Brodix will suffice. I believe AFR has a nice 180 head with angle plug fwiw.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: OBAMA IS HITLER
there's a variety of sources where you can get AFR Eliminator 180cc heads for about $1450, a google search reveals this. problem is, the smaller of the two choices available in chamber size is 65cc. so in jsup's case that's $1450 + about $50 shipping + $200 angle milling = about $1700.
Last edited by Red Tornado; Sep 25, 2007 at 09:30 PM.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Seems that with AFR or Brodix I can't go wrong.
Last edited by jsup; Sep 25, 2007 at 09:24 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 993
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From: Iowa
It really sounds like you have about what you need to make that number. Like I said before, I don't have any experience with any Brodix head smaller than a Track 1 (spec for some dirt trackers). Can you list the full specs of the camshaft? The duration @0.50 does tell us a lot about how the cam will behave but the other measures do come into play. Matching the cam up to what you want the engine to do is critical to being happy with the build. What is your "ideal" power band? That determines what parts you need from displacement to cylinder heads. So everything else aside, where in the RPM range do you want the engine to perform well?
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 35,065
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
It really sounds like you have about what you need to make that number. Like I said before, I don't have any experience with any Brodix head smaller than a Track 1 (spec for some dirt trackers). Can you list the full specs of the camshaft? The duration @0.50 does tell us a lot about how the cam will behave but the other measures do come into play. Matching the cam up to what you want the engine to do is critical to being happy with the build. What is your "ideal" power band? That determines what parts you need from displacement to cylinder heads. So everything else aside, where in the RPM range do you want the engine to perform well?
http://www.lingenfelter.com/Merchant...Category_Code=
It is matched to the intake I am using by the guys at Lingenfelter. Since it's sold as a "matched set" I think it should perform well.
Between the intake and the cam I am looking at an "ideal" power bad in the mid rage of 3000-6000 RPMs