84 cross fire
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 5,109
Likes: 334
From: Chicago IL
I'll tell him, and everyone else how stock my car is. It's no secret. I have a 2600 RPM stall Vigilant converter, true dual exhaust with an X pipe, and I race on BFG drag radials. Did I forget anything? I didn't leave anything out intentionally. I DON'T have, headers, gears, a cam, ported heads, roller rockers, or any other engine add ons. I have home ported my intake manifold and that was the biggest single change I've made to the car. It has 165,000 miles on it and it has never had a head off.
Stock TPIs are not a lot better than the Crossfire. It is great sport for the masses to pooh pooh the lowly Crossfire, but the TPI guys would be in the same boat, or worse, if it weren't for the shear numbers of TPI production. The salvation of the TPI is big mouth intake manifolds, over sized runners, and special plenums. For $1000.00 to $1500.00 the TPI manifold can be up graded significantly, and the car turned into a performer. There is no such option for the low production Crossfire (thank goodness). The TPI is difficult to make a lot better, at home. The after market allows you to start over... at great expense. With the Crossfire, one is virtually forced to "do it yourself", for little expense, but significant gains. A home rodded Crossfire will run circles around a similarly rodded (for similar cost) TPI.
To convert a Crossfire to a TPI for an increase in performance would be a huge waste of time and money. To convert a Crossfire to a TPI just so it can receive typical TPI up grades would be too. Now converting it directly to a Mini Ram or a Super Ram, or whatever is a different story.
RACE ON!!!
Stock TPIs are not a lot better than the Crossfire. It is great sport for the masses to pooh pooh the lowly Crossfire, but the TPI guys would be in the same boat, or worse, if it weren't for the shear numbers of TPI production. The salvation of the TPI is big mouth intake manifolds, over sized runners, and special plenums. For $1000.00 to $1500.00 the TPI manifold can be up graded significantly, and the car turned into a performer. There is no such option for the low production Crossfire (thank goodness). The TPI is difficult to make a lot better, at home. The after market allows you to start over... at great expense. With the Crossfire, one is virtually forced to "do it yourself", for little expense, but significant gains. A home rodded Crossfire will run circles around a similarly rodded (for similar cost) TPI.
To convert a Crossfire to a TPI for an increase in performance would be a huge waste of time and money. To convert a Crossfire to a TPI just so it can receive typical TPI up grades would be too. Now converting it directly to a Mini Ram or a Super Ram, or whatever is a different story.
RACE ON!!!
Advanced
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
Likes: 2
From: South Jersey NJ
Let me put my flame suit on:
As an auto mechanic, I see TPI cars all of the time, they are a dime a dozen. CFI cars are rare anymore. I think I have seen 3 or 4 of them in my 12 years of a professional auto mechanic. We can all agree that GM stopped short and left us with an under powered CFI engine, but for about $150 and some elbow grease, you can make a CFI perform like a stock TPI. I think it is great to see people making the CFI something it wasn't. It takes more time, research and effort to make the CFI engine perform, as there is not much out there as far as bolt on's are concerned, because they are rare anymore, and there is a lack of demand. To see a TPI car with 350 HP, big woop, you opened up the TPI section of Summit Racing and dropped over $1500 in add ons, way to pat yourself on the back Warren Johnson. To see someone making 350 HP and going through the trouble of keeping CFI, hats off to ya. Don't get me wrong, I love the TPI, and enjoy playing with them, you just don't see a CFI setups too often.
As an auto mechanic, I see TPI cars all of the time, they are a dime a dozen. CFI cars are rare anymore. I think I have seen 3 or 4 of them in my 12 years of a professional auto mechanic. We can all agree that GM stopped short and left us with an under powered CFI engine, but for about $150 and some elbow grease, you can make a CFI perform like a stock TPI. I think it is great to see people making the CFI something it wasn't. It takes more time, research and effort to make the CFI engine perform, as there is not much out there as far as bolt on's are concerned, because they are rare anymore, and there is a lack of demand. To see a TPI car with 350 HP, big woop, you opened up the TPI section of Summit Racing and dropped over $1500 in add ons, way to pat yourself on the back Warren Johnson. To see someone making 350 HP and going through the trouble of keeping CFI, hats off to ya. Don't get me wrong, I love the TPI, and enjoy playing with them, you just don't see a CFI setups too often.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 1
From: Santa Maria CA
Let me put my flame suit on:
As an auto mechanic, I see TPI cars all of the time, they are a dime a dozen. CFI cars are rare anymore. I think I have seen 3 or 4 of them in my 12 years of a professional auto mechanic. We can all agree that GM stopped short and left us with an under powered CFI engine, but for about $150 and some elbow grease, you can make a CFI perform like a stock TPI. I think it is great to see people making the CFI something it wasn't. It takes more time, research and effort to make the CFI engine perform, as there is not much out there as far as bolt on's are concerned, because they are rare anymore, and there is a lack of demand. To see a TPI car with 350 HP, big woop, you opened up the TPI section of Summit Racing and dropped over $1500 in add ons, way to pat yourself on the back Warren Johnson. To see someone making 350 HP and going through the trouble of keeping CFI, hats off to ya. Don't get me wrong, I love the TPI, and enjoy playing with them, you just don't see a CFI setups too often.
As an auto mechanic, I see TPI cars all of the time, they are a dime a dozen. CFI cars are rare anymore. I think I have seen 3 or 4 of them in my 12 years of a professional auto mechanic. We can all agree that GM stopped short and left us with an under powered CFI engine, but for about $150 and some elbow grease, you can make a CFI perform like a stock TPI. I think it is great to see people making the CFI something it wasn't. It takes more time, research and effort to make the CFI engine perform, as there is not much out there as far as bolt on's are concerned, because they are rare anymore, and there is a lack of demand. To see a TPI car with 350 HP, big woop, you opened up the TPI section of Summit Racing and dropped over $1500 in add ons, way to pat yourself on the back Warren Johnson. To see someone making 350 HP and going through the trouble of keeping CFI, hats off to ya. Don't get me wrong, I love the TPI, and enjoy playing with them, you just don't see a CFI setups too often.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Likes: 2
From: Van Nuys Ca
true dat.
i always tell my friend. yeah i can go out and buy a nice, fast car but i rather build one up myself. it just seems more rewarding especially if its a car that there isnt much aftermarket for.
i always tell my friend. yeah i can go out and buy a nice, fast car but i rather build one up myself. it just seems more rewarding especially if its a car that there isnt much aftermarket for.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Jamey
We can all agree that GM stopped short and left us with an under powered CFI engine, but for about $150 and some elbow grease, you can make a CFI perform like a stock TPI.
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early, TPI that can keep up with me.
Originally Posted by Jamey
To see someone making 350 HP and going through the trouble of keeping CFI, hats off to ya.
RACE ON!!!
Advanced
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
Likes: 2
From: South Jersey NJ
Last edited by Jamey; Nov 19, 2007 at 08:44 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Jamey
Yes, but for a statement like that, where you are comparing your car to a stock TPI car, you also have to take into consideration any other performace mods you have done to your car, like the exhaust, that does indeed yield more HP.
Originally Posted by Jamey
Sorry, I forgot the fact, or maybe I was trying to forget the fact, that the 1985 only made 230HP. I guess I could have left the rocker arms out of the equation.
RACE ON!!!
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 2
From: seattle WA
CFI-EFI, just exactly what do you consider an early TPI? if you're referring to an 85 or 86 iron head I might buy that, but if you're refering to an 87,88 or 89...well, if you picked up 35 horses from strickly a home porting job...maybe you better take up a second career!
And I'd really like to see that on a dyno.
And I'd really like to see that on a dyno.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,303
Likes: 714
From: Bartlett IL
CFI-EFI, just exactly what do you consider an early TPI? if you're referring to an 85 or 86 iron head I might buy that, but if you're refering to an 87,88 or 89...well, if you picked up 35 horses from strickly a home porting job...maybe you better take up a second career!
And I'd really like to see that on a dyno.
And I'd really like to see that on a dyno.
Jamey,
BTW, thanks. Absolutely correct. Nobody here argues stock for stock. But those of who have owned CFI know how handicapped the motor was and eliminating that handicap (i.e. manifold breathing, restricted runner cross section) equalized things. Once that's done, the Xfire does beat a stock TPI.
Last edited by Dominic Sorresso; Nov 19, 2007 at 04:57 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
Likes: 2
From: South Jersey NJ
Sorry CFI, what I was trying to say is I came up with $150 based on the three most economical and beneficial modifications, IMO, to the Xfire engine: A port job with a $40 gasket set, a $10 EGR block off Plate, and a $100 set of 1.6 roller tip rockers. All simple modifications which I am guessing will yield a modest 250HP to a Xfire engine. I hope you don't think I was disagreeing with you, as you obviously have more experience with the CFI motor than I do. My main point is if you have an Xfire, why not keep it, and do what people like yourself have done.
I am new to this forum, and appreciate the wealth of information available here!
I am new to this forum, and appreciate the wealth of information available here!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 2
From: seattle WA
Now I'm confused....what is it?
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call
on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call
on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 1
From: Santa Maria CA
Now I'm confused....what is it?
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call
on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
Advanced
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
Likes: 2
From: South Jersey NJ
Now I'm confused....what is it?
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me." Again, what do you consider an early TPI?
OR,
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI."
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses! Dyno proof! I call
on that! I'm not saying what you can accomplish from porting isn't admirable, or trying to put down a CFI.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.Have you seen a CFI intake? The intake port on the manifold is about 2/3rds the size of the intake port in the head. I spent about 3 hours with a high speed Matco die grinder, and a wide fluted aluminum bit, gasket matching alone, hogging it out and opening the runners up some for a smoother transition. With another hour or so into the upper side, pulling back and enlarging the runner entrances, and removing the EGR tunnel. I can see where the efficiency gain is huge. I can say I picked up at 20 to 30HP, but can't prove it. I am sure if you had it off a few times like Dominic and CFI have probably done a zillion times, you can modify it much further for the better.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by rick lambert
Now I'm confused....what is it?
Originally Posted by rick lambert
Originally Posted by CFI-EFI
"
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me."
Except for less than $150.00 in my engine there isn't a stock, early,
TPI that can keep up with me."
Originally Posted by rick lambert
OR,
Originally Posted by CFI_EFI
" No argument on either point. My stock Crossfire would never keep up with a stock TPI.".
Originally Posted by rick lambert
Someone, either you CFI-EFI or Dominic show some proof of your claims that porting the CFI gained 35 horses!. Dyno proof! I call on that!
on that!
Originally Posted by rick lambert
.....but I do say simply porting the intake on a CFI is NOT going to catch an 86 aluminum head or 87, 88. BTW, an 86 convert had 9.5:1 comp. ratio as did the 87 and 88 compared to 9.0:1 for the 84s.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Jamey
Sorry CFI, what I was trying to say is I came up with $150 based on the three most economical and beneficial modifications, IMO, to the Xfire engine: A port job with a $40 gasket set, a $10 EGR block off Plate, and a $100 set of 1.6 roller tip rockers. All simple modifications which I am guessing will yield a modest 250HP to a Xfire engine.
Originally Posted by Jamey
...and removing the EGR tunnel. I can see where the efficiency gain is huge. I can say I picked up at 20 to 30HP, but can't prove it. I am sure if you had it off a few times like Dominic and CFI have probably done a zillion times, you can modify it much further for the better.
RACE ON!!!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 4
From: Clifton Park NY
This thread just gets better and better.
I think most cfi guys would agree that a ported intake would just about be equal to the Xram on a stock cfi motor. Guys please correct me if I am wrong about this, but this is what I've understood.
If thats the case a ported intake on a cfi would be somewheres near my dyno sheet.
This is rwhp. A stock 85 tpi, at 230 hp with a 15% loss through the driveline would laeave 196 rwhp for the 85.
The car did run rich that day to, so I should have gotten more. Just to prove heres the A/F sheet
I think most cfi guys would agree that a ported intake would just about be equal to the Xram on a stock cfi motor. Guys please correct me if I am wrong about this, but this is what I've understood.
If thats the case a ported intake on a cfi would be somewheres near my dyno sheet.
This is rwhp. A stock 85 tpi, at 230 hp with a 15% loss through the driveline would laeave 196 rwhp for the 85.
The car did run rich that day to, so I should have gotten more. Just to prove heres the A/F sheet
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by qws
This thread just gets better and better.
I think most cfi guys would agree that a ported intake would just about be equal to the Xram on a stock cfi motor. Guys please correct me if I am wrong about this, but this is what I've understood.
I think most cfi guys would agree that a ported intake would just about be equal to the Xram on a stock cfi motor. Guys please correct me if I am wrong about this, but this is what I've understood.
Originally Posted by qws
If thats the case a ported intake on a cfi would be somewheres near my dyno sheet. (207 HP) This is rwhp. A stock 85 tpi, at 230 hp with a 15% loss through the driveline would laeave 196 rwhp for the 85.
Originally Posted by qws
The car did run rich that day to, so I should have gotten more. Just to prove heres the A/F sheet
I see your dyno run ended at 5300 rpms. I shift mine at 6000 rpms. Granted, it isn't making any power up there, but it makes enough to make it a better shift point then letting the rpms drop any lower after the shift.
RACE ON!!!
