Anyone use freeze 12 in their car(s)? My car shows a code 09 on the ecc unit, wich should mean low freon. Off course i´ll let someone check for leaks and such but is it ok to use this freeze 12? I´m asking since it is very hard or almost impossible to get hold of r 12 here in Sweden. Not an option to convert to r 134 for the same reasons as in the States. Pretty expensive and lower cooling capacity, I now it doesn´t get that hot here in Sweden but those days it gets hot it´s nice to have a cold/cool car.

 

I use a similar product called Enviro-Safe. I've used this and a smiliar one before that for almost 20 years. I've done extensive study on all these products and contrary to all the scare tactics used by DuPont and the freon crowd they are very safe and work well. These gases only require about half the amount (by weight) and keep compressor pressures lower. When it's 115 outside my ZR-1 stays cool inside and doesn't overheat (as long as these finicky electronics work properly).

 

Do your homework and find out exactly what's in this stuff. Many of these substitute products contain propane. This is not a substance that you want at high pressures under the hood of your car. Both my Vette and my other car are new enough that they came with 134a from the factory. But if I had an R12 car, I'd convert it to 134a when service was due and be done with it. There are far too many of these "substitutes" that are downright dangerous. Don't take the chance. I can't believe that most if not all of them haven't been regulated out of existence already. Take it from a factory trained, professional HVAC technician.

 

http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6030.pdf

 

I still use R-12 freon in mine. Is "Freeze 12" the name or a brand of something that replaces R-12?

 

I'd stay away from Freeze 12 and I speak from experience. I used it awhile back in an 89 Pontiac Grand Am driver that I have which had a perfectly running A/C system for about 5 years. I added that stuff to the system and the next day it froze up the compressor. Then a friend of mine who owns an A/C shop told me that they see frozen compressors from that stuff all the time. Apparently because it's propane the head temps get much hotter than R12 and it cooks the compressor. He even told me about a guy with a Porsche 928 that came in to have him fix his system and retrofit to R134 but when he got my friends quote he decided to just use Freeze 12 and he'd do it himself....well it was summertime and he failed to fix the leak at the condenser and when he started the car up after driving it for awhile and it was good and hot.... he grenaded the condenser, hood, and a headlight....apparently the explosion sent everyone running for cover in the parking lot.

 

I've got 2 old Bronco's and use freeze 12 in both. On one of them, I've added a rear system. It was a unit out of a newer van that used 134A,the orfice valve works just great. It runs about 5 degrees cooler than the front unit that is for 12. the Freeze 12 stuff works just fine and has the lower head pressures that 12 has versus the 134A. BTW, this system is about 12 years old, does just fine. I can stop and eat lunch in the panhandle of OK in August and come out and crank up and in about 5 minutes, the truck is cooled off. Outside temp around 105 and the Bronco is real dark gray, looks black-man it's an oven when I get in it.

My 94 LT1 has the 134A system, but the condenser is some bigger than the 93 system with 12.

 

This is one of those situations in which it will work great unit it doesn't, and then your really in for problems. From what I remember learning about Freeze 12 or Envirosafe..... I can't remember which one, but I think freeze 12 contains 40-60% propane. It will function the same as all the other refrigerants but there could be long term implications. First of all if its flamable you have to remember the condenser in the front of the car,.... under pressure... what do you think could happen in a front end collision? Also, propane eats away at both the R-12 (black) and the R134A (green) o rings over time. If your in Sweden, you might also want to look into your enviromental regulations,... you may need special documentation to purchase it.

Your best option is a 134A conversion or R12... If you can't buy either than you can take your chances with the freeze 12. Chances are it will be fine, I just think the other 2 options are better ones. Make sure you do your research on whats in this stuff.

DG

 

I see there are some different opinions on this subject. I will at first let someone check and repair leaks/change o-rings wich wouldn´t be to expensive and than decide if I put in r12 or freeze 12. I hear to much about r134 has higher head pressure and lower cooling capacity and recently read an article on a Greenpeace site.

Hydrocarbon in Primary MAC Systems: Over 300,000 cars have been converted in Australia from CFCs and HFCs to hydrocarbons. Similar conversions are happening in North America without regulatory approval. Hydrocarbons could most likely be safely used in primary MAC systems designed for their usage.

Hydrocarbons in Secondary Loop MAC Systems: The application of a secondary loop system would further overcome any outstanding safety concerns. "Designed to accommodate a hydrocarbon, the secondary loop system would completely eliminate HFC-134a use (and emissions). It would be expected to use about 10% more energy for operation than the current system, but would still represent a net savings of at least 80% of equivalent green-house gas emissions associated with current HFC-134a systems that are operated without proper recovery and recycle during service and vehicle disposal. One noteworthy aspect of using propane, the best hydrocarbon choice for secondary loop systems, is its availability; it is used universally for heating and cooking. As a result, its safe handling is widely understood and practiced by the general global population, whether literate or not. This could be an advantage in the developing countries of the world. For systems using propane, the charge for a mid-size vehicle would be relatively small, on the order of 200 grams, based on the molecular weight of the refrigerant and the lower refrigerant charge required by the secondary loop system."

TransAdelaide Bus Company has installed hydrocarbon air conditioning in the drivers’ compartment, while the passengers compartment is cooled by dessicant cooling.

Case the corvetteman certainly can chime in here.

 

This is one of those subjects where there are as many opinions as participants.
So, here is mine:

Stay away from any replacements that are "blends" -- other than R12 and R134a, most of them are blends.
Blends are exactly that, blended components mixed together in a proportion to allow it to function correctly.
And, the molecules of the different components have different sizes. So, if there is a leak, the component with the smaller molecule leaks faster than the other components. Therefore, if you just add more of the same blend, the total blend is not the same as it was originally. And in some cases, it can become even more flammable than it was.
Therefore, the smart thing to do is never just add more, evacuate the entire system and re-fill it from scratch.

My two reasons that you will never see a "blend" in my car:
1) Flammability hazards.
2) With a small leak, the blend usually changes due to molecular size differences.

Fortunately, my '92, after 15 years, has never even had to have the R12 topped off. But, when it does fail, I will put a complete (evaporator, condenser, compressor, lines, etc.) R-134a system from a '94 Corvette in my '92. Then, I will have a '92 with an AC system that was designed from scratch for R134a and it will cool just as well as my '92 R-12 system with no "blend" or flammability problems.

Your mileage may vary.

Tom Piper

 

You can still buy R-12, NOS, off some Ebay sites. You need a EPA certificate which you will have to study for and take a test. It's not that hard though. DOn't know about the rules in Sweden though. I wouldn't use any blends for ALL the reasons stated. And nothing cools like R-12.

HVAC engineer for 12 years.

 

It is amazing how long some of these R12 systems go. My ex-wife has a '93 Mitsubishi that I sold to her way back in 2000. It has nearly 200K miles on it now and has never had it's R12 system serviced and it's still working fine. My '95 Vette has 124K miles on it now. I don't know if it ever had A/C work done before I bought it at 81K miles but it's 134 system has never failed yet since I've owned it. However the 134 compressor on my '98 Nissan conked out before 80K miles and had to be replaced.
However, all things considered, if I owned an R12 car, when it came time to do A/C repairs, it would get converted simply for the sheer practicality of it, environmentally and the fact that you could get it worked on anywhere in a pinch. For instance, our shop no longer does any work on R12 systems unless it's a conversion to 134.

 

I've had Freeze-12 in my 86 Vette for about two years. So far, no problems. I'm not running it at the proper concentration, though, because I didn't evacuate the system correctly after replacing some O-rings. That said, it still cools very nicely - just not as well as the R12 did (but better than the R-134 setup in my daily-driver Subarus).

This was done as a cheap fix to have *something* that would blow cool air; eventually I plan to convert to 134a or whatever replaces that. However, if you want/need to keep your system looking stock and can't find or afford R12, it's worth a look.

FWIW, you can get your AC Technician's license online for about $20 by taking a fairly simple test. This will allow you to legally purchase R12 in bulk. A co-worker who owns older Mustangs went this route since he has several R12 vehicles to maintain.

[RICHR]

 

In a system designed for R-12, R134a may not cool as well.

But, in every system that I have had that was designed for R134a, it has cooled as well or better than an R-12 system.
And, this is checking it with thermometers and gauges, not just my judgement.

My 2002 Ranger with R134a will cool better than my '92 with R-12 and there is nothing wrong with either one.
That is why I have no problem in converting my '92 Corvette to a complete '94 Corvette system with R134a, even though I have about 50 small cans of virgin R12 and two large 30lb containers.

By the way, it is my understanding that any R-12 you buy today is reclaimed stuff, not virgin.

Tom Piper

 

Dang, Missed out again. I am running Freeze 12 in the Vette, same for the wifes Buick. Bout four years now.Not one spec of trouble.Cools just fine in these Florida summers with out overheating anything.

 

Freeze12 is 80% R134 and there are no hydrocarbons in it. I've never had any use for it. If converting, I'd stick with the real deal.

How long anything lasts is a function of system components. As the gas leaks, some oil goes with it. Lose the lubrication and the compressor seizes. Systems usually need more than gas - a lot more most of the time - and the gas is the least expensive component once everything has leaked out of it, so find out first why it's gone and worry about what you're going to top it off with second.

 

We really should let the OEM in on this secret about Freeze12 -- none of them use it yet.
They're still into that R134a stuff.
They are really missing out.

Tom Piper

 

R134a is going to be phased out starting sometime in the next few years by the enviro-*****, so I don't see the point in converting to it.

 

Yea, I heard that about 2 years ago, but I get updates from time to time from MACS and I haven't seen anything about the transfer since early 2006.


I think most of you guys are worried about the wrong thing here. If you are "environmentally concerned" than good for you. But the original question that was posed was about "fixing an air conditioning system” not about the environments safety. If you want to get environmental, the MACS approved solution for any leaking A/C system using R12 is a 134A conversion. Anyhow, alot of good points were brought up in this thread, but whats important is that you are sweating your ballz off in the car and you want the A/C to work.... just about anything you put in there will cool your car, the decision you need to make is are you more concerned about you and your cars safety, and the life of you a/c system, or the environment? That's it.

The fact that 134A is less efficient has been fought as many times the thermostat argument. I don't know how true it is but, even if it is true, the fact is, your a/c system on 134A is capable of cooling the same amount as on r12 with the proper modifications; these modds are not even all that expensive,... blow through a couple of lbs of R12 and you spent more than you would have to convert your system. So who cares at that point? Also, some of these substitutes have been known to react poorly with the R12 and R134A Oils.... you run the risk of damaging compressors (expensive) and clogging condensers (expensive).

Like I said before, alot of guys are running this stuff, no problem, and they may get away with it for the life of the car. Do you want to be the one who doesn't? Especially when other solutions are available. In my opinion fix the system and recharge with R12 if possible,... or convert.

Just my $0.02
DG

 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/autom...en17022006.pdf

http://www.aircondition.com/wwwboard/2003Q1/3685.html

Tom Piper