So what if R134 is phased out? Things change. Had I been smart, I would have started bagging new parts for my '89 when I purchased it 18 years ago - a lot more is unavailable than the gas I charge it up with (which is still easy - and relatively cheap to come by at any of the Discounters). Assuming I don't have some economic catastrophe, I'll probably always have a driver that's got the latest and the greatest and the crystal ball says that will come without anything on the accessory drivetrain (the Hybrids have allready ditched a belt driven compressor and power steering) and hopefully, it'll get some sort of mileage that makes $7/gallan gas reasonable and a long warranty to cover the a/c when it breaks.

 

PS - if you really want to worry about something, start thinking of ways to keep your headlights from going off like a roman candle when 16/24 volt electrical systems are phased in and you can no longer find a 12 volt battery that will hold a charge.

 

Cars quit coming equipped with R 12 in '94 yet it can still be bought. So you don't think that 134a will be available much longer than will R 12?

So when is this phase out of 12 volt batteries supposed to happen? Most vehicles switched from 6 to 12 volt systems in the mid 50s. Yet I can still buy a 6 volt battery with no problem.

 

The large military vehicles used two 12 volt batteries in series for a 24 volt system many years ago.
Probably, large commercial vehicles did too.

So, even if a single 24 volt battery becomes then norm, the 12 volt batteries will be around for years to come -- a 12 volt battery is no more of a environmental threat than a 24 volt battery.

Tom Piper

 

 

OK it´s batteries now, just came home. Here in europe the larger commercial vehicles (class 8 for you guys) use two 12 volt 175 amp batteries in series to their 24 volt systems here. All cars have 12 volt.

 

My point is why spend extra to convert from one system with limited supplies to another with limited supplies. R134a isn't at all limited yet, but it will be, just like R12.

I say either switch from R12 to the new stuff, or stay with R12.

Of course right now we're in limbo because they tell us R134a is bad and has to go yet haven't told us what it's being replaced with.

 

6 volt batteries aren't considered an environmental hazard compared to 12 volts.

 

I use the Freeze 12 in my 92 here in a really hot humid climate and 3 years later no problems.

 

12-volt batteries aren't being phased out because of the environmental hazard - it's because today's cars with their myriad computers and high-power 24-speaker stereos and nav systems and such have hit the limits of a 12-volt system.

And it's 42 volts, not 24...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...11/ai_n9012117

[RICHR]

 

Thanks - I've only seen 16 and 24 volts tossed around. Lead/acid batteries are old school. Look for lithium/ion - or something that doesn't catch fire - much lighter and longer lasting in the future. I'm pretty sure that in 20 years, 99.9% of us won't own a C4 - so maybe we shouldn't worry about it afterall.

 

After 39 years, I still own my C2.


Tom Piper

 

The power formula is P (power in watts) = E (voltage in volts) x I (current in amps).
So, by doubling the voltage and cutting the current in half, you still produce the same amount of power at the load without dropping so much voltage across the wires due to the higher current.

In other words, it is more efficient to use a higher voltage with a lower current.

However, there is a limit for the voltage you want to grab hold of while you are under the hood -- I'm guessing that the powers that be decided that limit is 42 volts.
Picture yourself grabbing onto a wire under the hood with 2000 volts.


Tom Piper

 

"After 39 years, I still own my C2"

Which is why I said 99.9... . There's probably better aftermarket support too. All I know is that I'll be 76 and more than likely, on my 2nd or 3rd Buick - assuming some legislator hasn't yanked my license forcing the retirement home to cart everyone around on an electric bus.

You've hit upon one of the drawbacks of these newer systems - the potential to electrocute yourself or someone - particularly in an accident.

There is nothing (that I know of) environmentally unstable with R134. The problem is greenhouse emissions which necessitates (if not simple economics) better gas mileage so getting the compressor (and everything else) off the accessory drivetrain will provide marginal increases. What works best in a more fixed, motorized system, is open to debate - maybe still to be invented. There will also be electric oil pumps and the camshaft will have been replaced with solenoid activated valves (Volvo was suppose to introduce that this past summer but losing the support of Ford has dampened their innovation). Any of this would be negated by an increase in weight so along with these things, lighter and more efficient batteries are part of the scheme. Relative to the big picture, we're a small group and with electronic throttle controls allready in place, gotta wonder if I'll be using a piece of string when I can't find a replacement cable.

 

The manufacture of R-12 was banned, not the use. From what I have heard there is enough R-12 left for many, many years of use. Every couple weeks there is a thread about buying R-12, get a license on line and buy all you want.

 

Plus the demand is very low, and gets lower every year as people convert away from it or junk their cars. Mexico is still producing R12 legally.