Gas Prices!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by hooblyboobly
For racers, gear heads, and motorsport junkies, it is nice. But to the average American consumer, it is a scam.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
Originally Posted by CFI-EFI
NO! Octane is nothing more than a measure of a gasoline's anti-knock properties. If it doesn't knock on low octane, the only thing you get with higher octane is the ability to tell your neighbor that your Corvette is such an animal that you HAVE to use the expensive stuff. Except for rare isolated cases, super premium is for the oil companies to make excess profits from the "nothing but the best for my baby" crowd.
RACE ON!!!
RACE ON!!!
You are a very knowledgeable guy, but you are dead wrong on this one.
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
Read the D$#ned owner's manual for the LT1: "Use premium unleaded gasoline rated at 91 octane or higher. You may use middle grade or regular unleaded gasolines, but your vehicle may not accelerate as well." You can certainly run 87 in an LT1, and you will not hurt the car. BUT, the LT1 is DESIGNED for optimal performance using 91 octane. Compression, timing, etc. The lower octane stuff does not run as briskly, and will get worse fuel economy.
I must repeat. Octane is nothing more than a measure of a gasoline's knock resistance. More octane than necessary is nothing more than a waste of money. That is all there is to it.
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Drifting
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,326
Likes: 18
From: Los Angeles California
If you have an LT1, use the recommended octane (91). 87 or 89 cannot hurt the engine, but you will suffer fuel economy and performance losses as the ECM dials back your timing in response to input from the knock sensor. I have tried the lower octane fuel in mine and the difference is very noticeable (especially the 87 stuff).
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,992
Likes: 1,331
From: Middletown, DE
In what you quoted, above, I paraphrased myself from my first post (#5) where I initially said, "If it doesn't knock or pull timing because the ESC gets activated, with lower octane gasoline, you have sacrificed nothing.". If you and others have experienced reduced performance with lower octane gasolines, then I suggest your computer is sensing knock and pulling timing. Ideally, with the ESC operating properly, the driver should never actually hear pinging when it occurs. A scanner could be used to check for knock counts or timing retard.
I must repeat. Octane is nothing more than a measure of a gasoline's knock resistance. More octane than necessary is nothing more than a waste of money. That is all there is to it.
RACE ON!!!
I must repeat. Octane is nothing more than a measure of a gasoline's knock resistance. More octane than necessary is nothing more than a waste of money. That is all there is to it.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
Glad you went back to post #5. Problem was, the OP has an LT1 and all he asked was (I'm paraphrasing here) if he would lose performance on '87 octane gas. The simple and correct answer would have been "yes."
Although I hate the waste of using a higher octane gasoline than necessary, I never advocated detuning to enable the use of lower grade of gasoline than necessary for full performance. That is an option for those that may feel they need it, however. My car is not detuned to allow for the 85 octane gasoline I use. If fact, quite the opposite.
RACE ON!!!
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Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
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From: Salem NH
-- Joe
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,976
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From: San Antonio Texas
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 2
From: Kathleen FL
Lawlz.... If gas prices hit $4.00+ a gallon this summer, I'm gonna have to create my own special blend of 70 octane (30% n-heptane) and sell it for $3.00 a gallon. I guess its just all about beating the competition nowadays... 
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
I used restraint in NOT responding to your previous attack on me, hoping that if I let a sleeping dog... Yet with no prodding from me, it appears your cage has become rattled. You realize the more you write, the further into your mouth your foot goes.
Let us know when you come across a parts counter guy. You could argue with parts counter guys, tow truck drivers, and any number of other people if you knew what you were talking about. Statements like "The more spark you can run, the more power you can make. It's pretty simple really." and "It's based on the ideal gas law. You cannot get around it:
* as pressure goes up --> volume goes down, temperature goes up, density goes up
* as pressure goes down --> volume goes up, temperature goes down, density goes down...", as an explanation for the behavior of a liquid (gasoline), etc" plus other gems of naivety at a minimum. More often then not, when you attempt to argue, you have engaged on a subject other than the point. If you weren't so obsessed with your favorite, perceived by you, counterman and his accomplishments with his near stock Crossfire, you might be able to focus on whatever the subject of the moment is, at the time. You say that "You can't argue with a parts counter guy.". YOU can't argue when your positions are so blatantly indefensible.
:
RACE ON!!!
Originally Posted by anesthes
Give up. You can't argue with a parts counter guy. Almost as bad as tow truck drivers.
-- Joe
-- Joe
* as pressure goes up --> volume goes down, temperature goes up, density goes up
* as pressure goes down --> volume goes up, temperature goes down, density goes down...", as an explanation for the behavior of a liquid (gasoline), etc" plus other gems of naivety at a minimum. More often then not, when you attempt to argue, you have engaged on a subject other than the point. If you weren't so obsessed with your favorite, perceived by you, counterman and his accomplishments with his near stock Crossfire, you might be able to focus on whatever the subject of the moment is, at the time. You say that "You can't argue with a parts counter guy.". YOU can't argue when your positions are so blatantly indefensible.
:RACE ON!!!
Last edited by CFI-EFI; Mar 15, 2008 at 09:00 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by STL94LT1
I datalogged a friends 94 LT1 running 87 octane. It was under constant spark retard, even at idle.
However, if that car is suffering from not enough knock suppressing octane, it needs a higher grade of gasoline. I never said that octane was a sham or a farce. Only that more octane than needed was a waste.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,261
Likes: 85
From: O'Fallon Missouri
If I owned that car I'd be looking into why. Certainly it shouldn't be knocking under no load. Is it suffering from false knock? Mine was. I ran mine on 93 octane, with my base timing set at 0° TDC as a test. It had knock counts revving it in neutral, under no load, surely false knock.
-Mike
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Well perhaps if I was running 85 octane like you, on a 15 second car (yes, I have witnesses who have seen you race) than maybe the statement about spark advance would be incorrect as i'd be well into knock. But than again, I'm not a grumpy old man in his 60s, collecting social security smoking 5 packs a day driving around an old beat up truck and a ragged out corvette complete with duct tape holding the quarter together.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,992
Likes: 1,331
From: Middletown, DE
Actually, it is not presumptive. He has an LT1, about which you apparently know very little, and which is specifically tuned to perform optimally using 91 octane gas. Therefore, I KNOW, JUST LIKE THE FOLKS WHO DESIGNED AND BUILT HIS CAR, that he will lose performance and/or gas mileage on 87 octane gas. You have been challenged on this thread by folks who OWN and DRIVE LT1's, who know how to read their owner's manuals, who have done objective testing, and who also know, just like you, that using higher octane gas than required is a total waste of money. And yet, you continue to argue with everyone, probably confusing the OP or causing him to wonder what type of folks hang out in this Forum, and for what?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,753
Likes: 9
From: Louisiana
After sorting through this thread, I believe this quote by CFI is his main point in this thread and it's true.
I have a 86 and 95. I don't drag race either car other than some spirited driving. I use 87 octane in the L98 and mid grade in the LT1. Both are for the most part stock. I used 92-93 octane in the 92 I had with the hotcam.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by anesthes
I wasn't attacking you before, silly. Didn't I point that out?
Originally Posted by anesthes
Well perhaps if I was running 85 octane like you, on a 15 second car (yes, I have witnesses who have seen you race) than maybe the statement about spark advance would be incorrect as i'd be well into knock.
Originally Posted by anesthes
But than again, I'm not a grumpy old man in his 60s, collecting social security smoking 5 packs a day driving around an old beat up truck and a ragged out corvette complete with duct tape holding the quarter together.
The depth of your obsession with me is both amazing and flattering.
RACE ON!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
Actually, it is not presumptive. He has an LT1, about which you apparently know very little, and which is specifically tuned to perform optimally using 91 octane gas.
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
Therefore, I KNOW, JUST LIKE THE FOLKS WHO DESIGNED AND BUILT HIS CAR, that he will lose performance and/or gas mileage on 87 octane gas.
Originally Posted by Onyx C4
You have been challenged on this thread by folks who OWN and DRIVE LT1's, who know how to read their owner's manuals, who have done objective testing, and who also know, just like you, that using higher octane gas than required is a total waste of money. And yet, you continue to argue with everyone, probably confusing the OP or causing him to wonder what type of folks hang out in this Forum, and for what?
RACE ON!!!