hopefully there wont't be a recurrance of what happened on the last thread. We had over 1100 views of the last video, so, I guess there was some interest. As I get time I will post others. It's hard to offer things like this without getting your head beat in.
Comments & Questions are welcome

 

There will not...........all pay heed to my post and report bad ones vs posting a reply........

 

Great stuff, I know we talk on the phone and I agree that better atomization of the fuel is the way to go. The only thing that limits power is air and how you utilize the fuel to air mixture efficiently can make a difference.

For the guys that mod up this is great info.

 

Thanks for taking the time and sharing with us, quite informative. One question, hasn't Multech redesigned their new injector to be in line with the rest?

 

The new injectors made by Delphi under labels like MSD etc. are different than the multec that came in these early Vettes. The whole purpose of this is not to put down the Delphi injector or any other injector. I run Delphi's in the race car. If I did not think they were good I would not run them. But, if I had a C4 and my injectors were acting up. I would consider another alternative. New Delphi's are around $300.00 a set new, usually not flow matched for that price. We happen to offer that alternative. Yes, they are used injectors,(I don't think we should be rebuilding new ones) that have been tested, Ultrasonically cleaned, refited with the best Viton o-rings you can buy. Flow matched, and fully reconditioned to flow as well as it did when they were produced. I stand behind everything we sell for 3 years. My phone is always on and I offer free tech. If I don't have the answer I will find it out.

 

 

Thanks for the info! I've watched both videos and they are very good in my opinion. I would like to visit your shop one day and say hello. Your just up the road from me.

Joel

 

Love to have ya..

 

Thanks Jon, I think the Lucas style 3 hole is a good injector for the money. The spray does appear to be a little finer with The Bosch. I'm not convinced that that makes it a better buy. I just prefer to stay away from things that are used or rebuilt.

 

I just got a chance to view the first thread and the comparison it provided. I recently purchased a set of Standard Injectors which I'm led to believe (from watching the prior video) will perform like the "lucas-style" injector. Am I correct?

In the prior video, I was impressed by the atomization -- thinking as many others that increased atomization is better. But, I also wonder how much its better -- on my batch-fire motor (where a/f isn't immediately sucked into the chamber)? I know things are happening very fast (e.g., 1ms per your prior video), but I wasn't sure if you were really making a concrete conclusion. I believe your quote was "it is concievable that all fuel is not atomized". I think this quote applied to for something like a lucas-style injector (which you then connected to Standard). Before I install these Standards, I'm wondering if they won't perform as well as my stock Multi-tecs (which as we all know here - have been bashed for years). That sounds worse-than-worse!

Have you done any tests that show the injector I just bought will be perform less-than-ideal (i.e., mileage/power?). If so, I'd consider selling (as they are yet un-installed) and purchasing an alternate set.

Thanks
Gregg

BTW: I think the model I bought was FJ47. Oh yeah, I don't race... pretty much stock now.

 

Gregg Standard is the manufacturer for all the Lucas style disc injectors. Since you just bought these and you already own them. Why don't you be a volunteer and actually test the two types for us. Adam another forum member is evaluating a set of Design III Bosch's also. But he is doing it against the multecs. I do not own a vette so I can't really do a ligit test comparing the Bosch and the Lucas. I will send you a set of Design III's Put in the Lucas first and drive the car for 3 weeks. Record mileage performance etc. Then Install the Bosch's and do the same. Report your results to the forum. The injectors will be yours to keep.

The second part of your question I offer the following:
The time that the fuel sits is very minimal actually non existant. The heat from the top of the intake valve is supposed to keep the mixture vaporized. I'm not a scientist or an engineer. Just an old mechanic.
Don't forget that the valves open and close in all the cylinders all
around the plenum at very rapid speeds causing a constant flow of air/fuel in the plenum. In other words the mixture is always there in a constant flow.There is no TPI system designed today that is 100% effective. All Internal combustion engines have emmissions. (unburned hydrocarbons) Thats why we have cats, Egr etc. The better the injector emits an atomized mist the more atomized fuel goes into
the mixture early. I hope you want to do the test for us.

thanks
jon

 

I know that Bosch makes very good injectors. If I could find new Bosch injectors at a reasonable price I would buy them.

Jon, I will say I am very impressed by the feedback I have seen here from your customers. You stand behind your injectors. I have been burned by another injector rebuilder. That turned me off to idea of used injectors.

What really worries me about used injectors is there is no way to determine how many miles are on them. The internal parts could have 200,000 miles or more and still work.

I commend you for selling your injectors as used rebuilts. Others list their rebuilts as new.

You sell a used set of Bosch injectors for $169.00. That is a fair price.

I bought a new set of Trick Flows for $299.00. That is a fair price.

I think either injector will work OK in a C4. I believe that all the fuel from either injector will be totally buned.

In a properly operating injector the fuel is vaporized and sprayed into the combustion chamber. The spark creates a small explosion. It's next to impossible for any vaporized gas to escape.

If the injector is clogged and dribbling gas; that will cause problems.

I doubt that there will be any noticible difference in performance between equally clean Lucas or Bosch injectors.

I'm still not convinced that Standard makes all the injectors for Accel, Lucas, Trick Flow, Racetronics and Summit Racing. Do you have a link that provides info about this? Basically you are saying that the Accels and the Lucas are identical and made by the same manufacturer. Why does Lucas sell an injector for over $100.00 and Accell for around $24.00? Are you sure they are the same?

Lucas has been putting their injector in Rolls Royces, Jaguar and tanks for decades. I believe that the Lucas type is a very good injector at a very reasonable price. Here's a link to the history of the Lucas injector. I'm not sure if this info is up to date but it shows the history of Lucas.

http://www.lucasinjection.com/HISTORY.htm

 

For whatever worth you give to real-world results, there are many ZR-1 owners who use Lucas-style RC and Accel injectors. I have not heard of anyone experiencing drivability problems, reduced fuel economy, oil dilution, or anything else. Mostly they experience a better running car and a smaller lightening of the wallet over GM/Delphi replacements (at least with Accels, my Delphis cost about the same as RC's).

It seems the Multecs get pretty abused. In many cases these are 20+ year old injectors, designed and constructed before things like 10% ethanol in gasoline was even considered. The idea that brand new injectors perform better seems like a pretty obvious no-brainer. I don't think that means brand new Multecs are a flawed/bad choice though, just because your originals crapped out. If my injectors go another 15-20 years before needing replacement, I'd hardly complain about that.

Anyway, it sounds like Jon is making you an offer you can't refuse. Free injectors and your own controlled test.

 

Fred I appreciate your feedback and am sorry that you have been burned in the past. Unfortunately when one vendor mistreats or mishandles a situation it tends to cast a negative shadow on the rest of us. It is obvious that you are passionate about your car and that you keep up to date on this forum.

Just to clarify a point. If 100% of the fuel entering the combustion chamber burned, there would be no real emissions. It is impossible to burn liquid fuel. There are 2 sides to a distilled fuel molecule. Heavy and Light sides. They react differentlly when ignited. Scientists and engineers have been trying for years to build a clean burning, high performance, economical internal combustion engine. They are getting close with the lean burn technology that allows an engine to run efficiently at 40-1 AFR. (the lean burn engine). The engines of the future will all burn close to 100% of all the fuel that is fed into them. In your SBC, where the injector is mounted in the manifold will determine the spray angle suitable for its location in relations to the inlet port and valve, this will also determine greatly what the spray pattern should be like to get as much fuel into the combustion chamber in a combustible format.
The size of the manifold will also determine the size of the spray pattern that can be used. To wide and it will wet the walls of the manifold, this will be wasted fuel.

Excess fuel just dampens the combustion stroke and then gets dumped out on the exhaust stroke and with more and more environment issues coming in to performance racing, excess fuel will be a problem. Many races are being won on fuel economy now, so making sure you have the correct spray as well as flow if just as critical, if anyone should disagree with me, I would be happy to prove it to them, but I guess that when you have most of the USA's top race teams following that theory, then i would guess we have a better argument as to what we do and say does get results.

Too little fuel in the engine can cause a blow out, too much fuel in the engine can also have a devastating effect on the longevity of the engine too.




I'm glad that you have taken the time to read my customers feedback. We try to help each of our customers not only by providing the appropriate injector but also the tech support and customer service necessary to ensure a great result.

I look forward to sometime in the future when we can work with you and change your experience with rebuilt injectors.

I welcome your emails/posts and calls anytime!

Jon - FIC
770-842-0882
info@fuelinjectorconnection.com

Also: with respect to your article, I read it and found it interesting. I tend to disagree when you say that injectors at 200k miles are at the end of their life. Fuel injectors are the most precise, over-engineered item in your engine. Here's a quote from your article on the history of Lucas talking about internal parts. "These are hardened steel and do not wear." We warranty our injectors for 3 years while new injectors are only warranteed for 90 days. Also if after a year or so you do some additional mods on your car and require a bigger injector, I will trade back in the old ones for credit against the new ones..All sales are NOT final.

 

You are right 100%. All I want is to offer an alternative. Do you know that a set of New injectors for a ZR1 are From $1260.00 to $1900.00 per set. Ours sell for $349.00 for all 16. We have done all the modification to adapt these to the fuel injection housing on the ZRI..We offer many different combo's for the primary and secondary injectors. Next week we are coming out with New Bosch injector sets for under $1000. Don't forget the LT5 is a lotus design using a fuel injector housing situated in an optimum location. The system uses 2 21lb injectors per cyl. The secondaries come on based on the parameters set up in the ECU. Also, most are not used for daily drivers. Economy is not really an issue.
The photo below shows FIC rebuilt Bosch III injectors in a 90 ZR1. Most said it could not be done. Just waiting for Jeff to do the road test.

 

Yup, it's always nice to have alternatives.

 

Thanks for the great information..........I now know more about fuel injectors........great job.......but, I see that the multec injectors that are failing are 90's and yet you said
not to run the new meltec's over 59 psi..........your saying all multec's lock up at high psi..........new or old?....based on your test with 90's.......or have you tested new multec's also?

thanks again for the beating your taking...........

 

Good question on the new multecs. I think they are ok. They say they are different than the ones on the c4's. All I know is every one I have ever tested off a L98 locks up at 60 in a pulse mode. But, very few if any guys run 60psi with old multecs. They are still a good injector when they are working. It's just my feeling that there are better replacements on the market when the time comes to replace them. From other e-mails I have recieved there is still mixed thoughts on the lock up on new designs. I have Delphi low impedance in the race car. They don't lock up. I do not have a new High Z Delphi to test.
I am going to order a new one right now to test. I will post my findings in a video from out of the box to The flow bench and we will find out once and for all. Seeing is believing

 

Thanks...........looking forward tio the new test......You'll get beat up for it too......those looking for flaws will find them and multec might send someone over to break your leg.

 

Hey I'm ready. We are allowed to carry all kinds of guns and shovels in Ga. Plus there are two Rotweillers at the shop their names are Manager and Assistant Manager