This is the typical corvette forum answer for everything. "Don't like your auto and want a ZF6? SELL IT AND BUY A NEW CAR!" "Don't like your bumpers? SELL IT!"

How about he keep is car, rip out the garbage engine, and build a nice multiport 350? It seems thats the advice he's looking for.

-- Joe

 

So who's the fastest guy on here with crossfire?

I can think of a few people who 'wanted to prove CFI is capable'. One sold his car, and the other runs a HSR now.

-- Joe

 

I think that would be ben73 in Aus. He ran a 12.48 111mph but with a XRam. I ran a 12.95 @ 108mph but with a XRam as well. Dom or CFI I think would get the honors with using a Crossfire Manifold.

 

Well, I'm no expert at the L83 and elkabong answered your question about the CF guys. I take the "crossfire is garbage" comments with a grain of salt as a lot of people ripping on it also bash the L98. We all know the set backs of the L98 but people find ways around it. Why would that be any different for the L83? If a manufacturer goes through the trouble to create and market the X-ram for the CF cars, maybe they see some potential the uneducated may not see.

I like to live by the old saying despite its double negatives, "Don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something". Who says he's gotta keep it all motor? I'd find it hard to believe a L83 properly researched wouldn't respond well to the laughing gas like any other Vette engine. There's a guy over in the C4 forced induction section that has a turbocharged Crossfire. Overall, I was implying it would seem more satisfying to take what virtually everyone believes is a stone of a motor and make it into something admirable. When the guy in the lt4 tells his friends he got his doors sucked off by a Crossfire, they're gonna do a doubletake.

 

I think DOM ran 13 something before he sold the car.

I think the point here is, the OP knows he wants a better setup, just looking for advice on which setup.

The new edelbrock pro-flo XT seems like a winner in the price department.
If it fits under the vette hood, I think it's going to be the next popular multiport manifold. I'd probably unload my miniram to test one.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/al...ro-flo-xt.html


-- Joe

 

Now that looks great. I wonder if they'll ever manufacture an LSX style manifold to fit the gen1-2 blocks.

 

Here is some food for thought. First the only difference between an L83 and L98 is the induction system. Other than that it is a Gen I SBC.

Here are some thoughts about the 'ol Crossfire.
1 - Port a stock manifold. A good ported stock manifold should be able to handle 300 crank hp or real close to it.
2 - The XRam is an odd bird for sure. In my experience it is better with larger cube motors. I put my XRam on my stock motor with 1.6 RRs and I did not like it so I went back to a ported Crossfire manifold. I lost too much bottom end for my liking. Single plane designed manifold and short runners are the culprit. My 383 seems to like it.
3 - Extrude honing the manifold (like Dom did) is another option but it is *real* expensive.
4 - Bigger TBs and injectors are probably going to be needed.
5 - If there are exentsive modificaitons tuning *will* be required. But this is the case with all of our Vettes regardless of the year. This can be expensive and a pita because you need to heavily modify a TBI ECM.
6 - Is there a silver bullet or stuff you can buy off the shelf like TPI cars? No. It will take work, experimentation and dedication. If someone wants to just buy stuff, bolt it on and expect it to run like a bat out of hell you are grossly mistaken about Crossfire's - don't attempt it because in the end of the day you will have just spent a pile of cash.
7 - The Crossfire is extremely misunderstood. Can it be made to perform, well yes it can be. It just depends on what level. If it is kept stock it is like a Timex watch once it is dialed in.

These are just my opinions right or wrong. But after having my 84 for almost 6 yrs now...... Wow almost 6 hrs.

 

Why? Based on what criteria?

My CFI Trans Am made OVER 300 hp, got OVER 24 mpg on the highway w/3.45 gears and idled like stock. What is "horrible" about that??

ALL my mods cost me less than $1500.00 and all the mods to the INDUCTION system cost me less than $200.00. Based on the above criteria, what is "horrible" about that??

 

If you click on the link, the part#'s are on the site for gen1 sbc w/ both normal and vortec heads.

-- Joe

 

Face #1Face #2A face for any occasion.

RACE ON!!!

 

Well I guess thats not too bad for an early 80s car.

What's horrible is the atomization of the mixture, the crude ECM,
that horrible bog they all get out of the gate, the synchronized throttle bodies, If your supercharging them you'll lock the injectors by trying to add too much fuel pressure.

24 mpg is not bad though.

-- Joe

 

You post shows me that you've little to no experience in a proper running CFI car. My particular CFI car never had a "bog out of the hole"...ever. Not when I bought it and it had a "gutless 305", not w/the 350, and not in it's final form when I sold it w/a junk yard dog, 400. No bog. In fact, I used to pull 1.8 60' times on real street tires, leaving the line at 1200 RPM. Anything higher than 1100 or 1200 would result in wheel spin all the way through first gear. So, no bog. Furthermore, when it had the original 305 in it, with nothing more than Edelbrock "headers" and Y, and '86 cat and "free mods", it ran 14.5 @95 at Epping. Abotu what TPI 350's ran stock, back then. No bog.

Other CFI cars I've see (that are running properly) have exhibited zero bog as well, and in fact are some of the "torquiest", most throttle resposive engines I've seen...certainly way, WAY more so than my current '06 LS2. Not sure where you came up w/that perspective on the CFI engine other than witnessing one which was imporperly set up or tuned.

As for 'charging...you know Joby/Jonas don't you? He had a supercharged CFI 'Vette that ran 12's IIRC.

Edit: Don't get me wrong: I don't want anyone to thing that I think that it's "great", or the best thing, or anything like that. I don't. But if the OP want's 300 hp, the CFI that's on his car is the cheapest most viable and most direct route to that goal. Or he could spend $2-3k on an intake system and get the same thing (but w/potential for more). He may as well max out what he's got, enjoy 300 hp and then if he wants more, THEN buy something else.
W/regard to "slow stupid ECM" and poor fuel atomization, yes the ECM is dumb, and the atomization is arguably inferior. But my results showed me that those "issues" are negligible/marginal at most, and matter way, way less than a decent tune.

 

Well I'm not a CFI expert. Like I said, I don't mind the TBI in my truck.
14.5 is not bad I guess. My friends stock GTA runs 13.80s at epping though, with just my tuning. I've seen a few stock L98s in the mid 14s though so I guess its about the driver.

Like I said, I've only had my hands on a few. I used to have a few of the air cleaner assemblies and cowl hoods too from when I had the parts business. I could never get anyone to buy the crossfire intakes though.

Yep. He runs an HSR now.

I guess. But why are we debating this? he already said he wants to get rid of the intake.. I might I guess if he wants to go all out with what he has he can build a solid 14 second car like you guys. I just think maybe he wants 300hp as a starting point, and then more room to grow?
Who knows, I could be crazy.

-- Joe

 

I'm sure. I wasn't discussing "tuned" 350's. I was talking about the "lowly" 305 CFI, and what it could do though the stock, unmolested intake. That's all. But driving a mid 14 second automatic L98 F-bod ain't that hard.



I wouldn't think so. Who would...and why??? But if it's already on the car you've got, (as in my case and the case of the OP), that doesn't mean that you're condemned to a mid 15 second car or slower.



Point was that he did run a charger on it, after you tried to claim that it can't be done.



Because you posted inaccurate, misinformation, that could lead to the OP spending thousands of dollars on an intake to "fix" problems that simply don't exist with a CFI intake system. That is all. My "debate" as you call it isn't which intake is better that another, it's that CFI when running properly, doesn't bog, does get good gas mileage (as good as any other 80's SBC), and can meet all teh same criteria as any other intake , up to above 300 hp, for WAY less money.

No debate here, just some facts from a guy who DID own and play w/one for a long time.

 

No I didn't. I mentioned one of the obstacles with trying to raise the fuel pressure to compensate for boost.


Right, well again, the OP stated he didn't want the intake, he wanted something better. The thread wasn't "CFI lovers, please talk me out of buying a new intake because you love your CFI car", it was "1984 Corvette *REMOVING CROSSFIRE*". I don't think he's trying to fix any problem, I think he wants to build a performance motor.

And I'm not sure what your going on about now with the misinformation speech. You picked out my "bogging" statement, yet went and agreed with everything else I said.

Hey it's cool. And my facts are coming from a guy who has tried numerous aftermarket setups, numerous ECMs, and built some of my own intakes. Again I'm not a crossfire expert, I just haven't met too many people who have won races with one.

-- Joe

 

You guys are arguing over this ?? Here I'll answer his questions.

1. is there a good way to upgrade this engine?
Sure there is, heads, cam, exhaust the list goes on

2.If I removed the crossfire injection system and that crappy intake manifold, how much work would it be to install a more modern system?
It would be alot of work

3.Would I have to get a new PCM?
Assuming the PCM is an ECM then perhaps depends on what you end up doing.

4.Would it fit?
Which intake ? With the stock hood without cutting it ??

5. Do the LS crate engines fit?
Sure !! However that will be the least of your problems.

 

There are "obsticles" w/any modification. Injector locking is a smaller obsticle than installing an LSx engine. But it's a mute point b/c the OP isn't going to be charging the thing.



Here's what the OP stated. I'll just copy and paste here for you , to make is simple...
The answer to that question is YES! However, you replied w/the blanket statement that "it's horrible"/junk, etc. which is misleading and not entirely true. I asked ..to which I'm still waiting for an answer. Because the criteria that I use to measure the effectiveness of an engine; power, tq, 1/4 mile results, money spent, fuel economy and drivability....are or were all met by an engine fed by a CFI intake, for me.



I agreed that the ECM is slow, and that you could ARGUE (which you do) the theory of fuel distribution. Fact is, it doesn't matter. ECM is good enough to get it do perform the functions of the job, and meet the criteria, and plug reads show that fuel distribution is fine -even with "swirl plates" removed. The results with those theoretically "inferior parts" show that in real life the short comings just don't matter. If you had any experience w/the system you'd know and understand that. But here is some more Misinformation:
Only the last bullet point was accurate, and in context.

That's because you don't know many people who own one and even fewer (apparently) who know how to properly tune one, yourself included.- -by your own admission. Yet you jump on this thread and condemn the system which you know nothing about, then argue about it!! Amazing! I'm waiting for you to start personal attacks on me for my "sacked out C6" or whatever personal info you can gather from me here in Park City.

They only made it on the C4 for one year, vs. 7 years for TPI. Statistics guarantee that you won't meet "too many people who have won races with one".

IN SHORT: The OP can easitly and cheaply meet the criteria he stated w/the CFI intake. The most direct, easy, and cheap route to 300 hp for the OP is to mod his current engine/intake. That is fact.

 

Whatever. I'm not going to argue with you on this. If you want to recommend the guy keep and mod his crossfire go right ahead. When he's pissed off a year later because he wasted money on junk that could have went to a better combo, you can be the one he yells at.

I'll stick to my go-fast cars.. take care.

-- Joe

 

I've never seen someone argue so much, and come to "battle" w/so little! What are you baseing your position on? That you've no experience w/CFI? Or that you DO have experience w/MR and HSR systems, so EVERYONE should go that way no matter what??? Using your (non) logic, I should start trumpeting that "everyone" including you, should have an LS2 or LS3 and anything less is a waste of money and will leave you completely unsatisfied! Give me a break!

What money would be wasted on moding the CFI?? The guy want's 300 hp, he says that's plenty, and more most people, I'm sure it is.

YOU'RE the one recomending a $3k plus intake to get 300 hp, when I've proven you can get there directly, and cheaply for a couple hundred w/the system that he's got! WTF kind of recomondation is that?!

Agreed. You need to stick w/giving advice on things that you actually HAVE some experience with.

Let's go back to post #5:
Honest answer: YES!, in addition to the same requisite supporting mopds that you'd do to any SBC w/any intake system.

 

More than likely, the OP is turned off to the potential of the Crossfire because of just such people as this. People, who in the end have to admit that they know little or nothing about the Crossfire, bad mouth the unknown (to them) out of ignorance. Then people like the OP are discouraged from making an effort to learn about and work on their own car. With a little tinkering and tuning the OP can cut 2 seconds off his 1/4 mile ET, just as I have for very little cost. I have said for decades, that the Crossfire is a thinking mans car. If you want a cookie cutter duplicate of everybody else's performance, buy an L98 or Mustang, and go through the Summit catalog and order the trick of the week. There aren't many parts offered for the Crossfire, so if you know and enjoy cars, you have to do your homework, then roll up your sleeves, jump in, get your hands dirty and have fun.

No matter what one does to their car, soon it gets old. Last years amazing performance gain is this years yawn. I'm pleased with what I have been able to coax out of my Crossfire, but sooner or later it will be time for more. Despite it's faults, and they all have faults, there is potential in the Crossfire that when unlocked can provide a substantial increase in performance and automotive knowledge to he who dares.

RACE ON!!!