Freon?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 4
From: Clifton Park NY
Freon?
A couple of years ago I had converted my R12 system to the 134. When I went to fill it at the local shop they said they couldn't fill it because there was residual R12 in it and it had to get evacutated first.
Even though I've had the system open several times over the past couple of years and I know there is nothing in it and the only item left that hasn't been replaced is the condensor.
Is it safe to add R134 to the system that may have very low amounts of R12?
Even though I've had the system open several times over the past couple of years and I know there is nothing in it and the only item left that hasn't been replaced is the condensor.
Is it safe to add R134 to the system that may have very low amounts of R12?
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 34,873
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From: Lacey WA RVN 68-69
NCM Sinkhole Donor
If the initial conversion was done by a trained auto A/C technician and used the proper equipment, there should have been no R-12 residue in the system.
Evacuating the system is part of the procedure for an R-134a conversion, along with removal of the oil used for R-12. Anytime the system is to be "opened", the refrigerant should be evacuated using the proper equipment. While R-134a is nowhere near as bad for the environment as R-12, it's never a good idea to release refrigerant into the air.
If you system is not currently charged, a good shop with good technicians will take that into consideration when doing the work. Either this shop doesn't know what they are doing, or they are trying to add more labor costs to the job.
Evacuating the system is part of the procedure for an R-134a conversion, along with removal of the oil used for R-12. Anytime the system is to be "opened", the refrigerant should be evacuated using the proper equipment. While R-134a is nowhere near as bad for the environment as R-12, it's never a good idea to release refrigerant into the air.
If you system is not currently charged, a good shop with good technicians will take that into consideration when doing the work. Either this shop doesn't know what they are doing, or they are trying to add more labor costs to the job.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 4
From: Clifton Park NY
I had replaced the compressor,accumulator, and put the new R134a fittings on myself.
In NY they won't charge the system if there is any trace of the R12, which I assume they're may be just a bit in the condensor (which I didn't replace). So any of the AC guys won't just charge it if I don't replace that condensor.
Like I said there is only trace's, no actual charge in there.
Evacuated it myself....legally of course.
At this point since I want to charge it will the 134a I'm just curious if I can do it safely with only this trace amount of R12 from the condensor.
In NY they won't charge the system if there is any trace of the R12, which I assume they're may be just a bit in the condensor (which I didn't replace). So any of the AC guys won't just charge it if I don't replace that condensor.
Like I said there is only trace's, no actual charge in there.
Evacuated it myself....legally of course.
At this point since I want to charge it will the 134a I'm just curious if I can do it safely with only this trace amount of R12 from the condensor.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,621
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From: Orlando FL
A couple of years ago I had converted my R12 system to the 134. When I went to fill it at the local shop they said they couldn't fill it because there was residual R12 in it and it had to get evacutated first.
Even though I've had the system open several times over the past couple of years and I know there is nothing in it and the only item left that hasn't been replaced is the condensor.
Is it safe to add R134 to the system that may have very low amounts of R12?
Even though I've had the system open several times over the past couple of years and I know there is nothing in it and the only item left that hasn't been replaced is the condensor.
Is it safe to add R134 to the system that may have very low amounts of R12?
If you truly pulled a vacuum and re-filled it, you would think that would do it. Unless there is some oil that is holding a trace.
If you could do all that work, refill it yourself even if you need to but some additional tools.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 4
From: Clifton Park NY
Just wondering how they determined how there was R12 in it, how did they measure?
If you truly pulled a vacuum and re-filled it, you would think that would do it. Unless there is some oil that is holding a trace.
If you could do all that work, refill it yourself even if you need to but some additional tools.
If you truly pulled a vacuum and re-filled it, you would think that would do it. Unless there is some oil that is holding a trace.
If you could do all that work, refill it yourself even if you need to but some additional tools.
Now (2 years later) I want to fill it with the 134a, so I'm just making sure that if I fill it with the 134a and knowing that there may be low amounts of R12 that by putting in the new, I won't be hurting anything lets say a hundred parts 134a and maybe 2 parts R12.
So far I'm guessing it will be ok.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Cherokee National Forest TN
If NASA owned the vehicle I could understand the concerns of a percentage of old freon.
If I owned the vehicle I would stuff a charge in it & enjoy a ride in conditioned air.
If I owned the vehicle I would stuff a charge in it & enjoy a ride in conditioned air.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: San Diego, Ca
Realistically, once your Gages read 0 the only thing left is oiil and the atmosphere and that's why so many get away with these driveway conversions (without immediately blowing a hole in the hood). Pulling a vacuum doesn't dispose of old refrigerent or oil - just air and any moisture that's in the air. I can't blame a shop for being cautious about someone else's work. Mixing unlike gasses can create some incredible pressures but their concern may be more with the mineral oil used with R12 (hopefully the Converter went with Ester - which is compatible with the mineral oil - and not PAG which isn't). Otherwise, a reputable shop should be able to tell what the gas is - assuming R12 or R134. In any event, you need to find out where the gas went so I'd find a shop that's willing to do that - or you could just top it off and if you follow a pressure/temp chart, it may be ok until it seeps out again. With a leak, you hope it's not losing oil and/or, it hasn't been running for too long without enough gas to carry the lube.
Le Mans Master
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From: levittown pa. usa Even a bad day with my `Vette, is better than a good day at work
St. Jude Donor '10
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From: Merritt Ils Fl
Le Mans Master
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They have a machine that can tell a trace amount of R-12...bull****..never heard of it..and if there is one...they don't have it.
Charge it up, a little r-12 won't do anything. Hell most of the supposed drop in replacement freons are made of r-134 and some other type...which is why they aren't real substitutes for r-12.
Charge it up, a little r-12 won't do anything. Hell most of the supposed drop in replacement freons are made of r-134 and some other type...which is why they aren't real substitutes for r-12.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,658
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From: Clifton Park NY
Just to update. I went ahead and filled it to 45. so far its holding. compressor turns on and stays on.
the shop thing was two years ago and it wasn't until now that I wanted to try it. I just didn't know if it would hurt anything. Its done! I now have Air conditioning!!!!.....
First time since I've own the car... thats been 6 years!
Thanks for the replies!
the shop thing was two years ago and it wasn't until now that I wanted to try it. I just didn't know if it would hurt anything. Its done! I now have Air conditioning!!!!.....
First time since I've own the car... thats been 6 years!
Thanks for the replies!
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,226
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From: Irvine Ca
They have a machine that can tell a trace amount of R-12...bull****..never heard of it..and if there is one...they don't have it.
Charge it up, a little r-12 won't do anything. Hell most of the supposed drop in replacement freons are made of r-134 and some other type...which is why they aren't real substitutes for r-12.
Charge it up, a little r-12 won't do anything. Hell most of the supposed drop in replacement freons are made of r-134 and some other type...which is why they aren't real substitutes for r-12.
R12 has Florine which in an enclosed system is stable, but if you introduce other molecules into that system the Florine becomes very corrosive.
So, you have to decide if you want a 20 year system or do you want to fix it while you are the owner for the next 2.7 years.....
Me personally?? and understand I am just making a point......I fill systems with R134a almost as soon as I get a car.....Old ones usually have a leak so rather than spend $1200 to fix one correctly on a car that is worth $1200....I just buy the kit and convert.
technically speaking, the ether (oil or Fomblin) will be completely contaminated with Florine molecules and if you really need to get all the Florine out, the oil has to be replaced........
But.....like I said....doing all that...you'll spend $$$$....Money on an old car....you decide.....R134a in your system will give you years of service even with R12 traces......
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,193
Likes: 16
Not quite accurate professor.....
R12 has Florine which in an enclosed system is stable, but if you introduce other molecules into that system the Florine becomes very corrosive.
So, you have to decide if you want a 20 year system or do you want to fix it while you are the owner for the next 2.7 years.....
Me personally?? and understand I am just making a point......I fill systems with R134a almost as soon as I get a car.....Old ones usually have a leak so rather than spend $1200 to fix one correctly on a car that is worth $1200....I just buy the kit and convert.
technically speaking, the ether (oil or Fomblin) will be completely contaminated with Florine molecules and if you really need to get all the Florine out, the oil has to be replaced........
But.....like I said....doing all that...you'll spend $$$$....Money on an old car....you decide.....R134a in your system will give you years of service even with R12 traces......
R12 has Florine which in an enclosed system is stable, but if you introduce other molecules into that system the Florine becomes very corrosive.
So, you have to decide if you want a 20 year system or do you want to fix it while you are the owner for the next 2.7 years.....
Me personally?? and understand I am just making a point......I fill systems with R134a almost as soon as I get a car.....Old ones usually have a leak so rather than spend $1200 to fix one correctly on a car that is worth $1200....I just buy the kit and convert.
technically speaking, the ether (oil or Fomblin) will be completely contaminated with Florine molecules and if you really need to get all the Florine out, the oil has to be replaced........
But.....like I said....doing all that...you'll spend $$$$....Money on an old car....you decide.....R134a in your system will give you years of service even with R12 traces......
That was my point..you said it better. The best way is to remove ALL traces/replace contaminated parts..then charge..but its big bucks and time.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
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But its interesting how many people fill their system with whatever...and they run..for a while. Know a guy who fills it with hotshot....says "yeah, I fill it every year and it runs great" guess he doesn't mind it pissing out of every orifice.