i have a 93 coupe and im wondering what nitrous i should use whats safest,, wet or dry whats the difference what shot is safe. im in northern ca any good shops to install it thanks Dan

 

It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want run up to 125hp then a dry kit is the way to go. If you want 150 or more then a wet kit is the hot set-up.


[Modified by RatRacer, 9:35 PM 3/24/2002]

 

Ratracer, I have a chip in my car, do I have to take it out before I use a 75-125 dry shot system? :confused:

 

First off, I would NEVER use a dry kit. Why would you want to leave it up to the computer to add the extra fuel to support the nitrous injected. This is the best way to lean out the motor. Out of all of the people I know that have blown up their motor using nitrous is from a DRY kit. Do it safe, use a wet kit and follow the recommended jetting by the nitrous companies.

BTW: I would use a NX GEN II single nozzle kit.

 

Yes, you need to run a stock chip. Most tuner chips advance the ignition timing and this is dangerous with nitrous.

 

Using the ECM to richen the fuel is a C5 thing and does not apply to the original post. With most cars the dry kit increases fuel pressure at the Fule rail to richen the A/F ratios. The LS1 is an odd ball in this respect as it does not use a conventional fuel pressure regulator.

 

I agree...I've seen entirely too many motors grenade on dry systems. Basically a dry system uses an FMU (fuel management unit) that increases rail pressure and supposedly increases the lb/hr rating on injectors. The reason they've become popular is becuase they're easier to plumb and they're cheaper (which translates into more profitability for the mfgs). However, fuel injectors (infectors) have a nasty habit of going into hydrostatic lock when subjected to too high fuel pressure. This can do one of two things; it will either cause the pintle or disk to lock open and produce uncontrolled flow (which is bad) -OR- it will lock in the closed position and shut off flow all together (which is EVEN WORSE). Dry systems also don't offer the tunability that wet kits do nor do they 'hit' as hard. Stay away from dry systems...You've been warned...
-Jeb Burnett

 

Sorry Jeb but you've been reading too many NX dealer's BS. Everything you just wrote is total BS. This BS was started by NOS's competition in an attempted to elbow in on the market NOS created.

Most catastrophic engine failures that happen with nitrous have everything to do with the user making a mistake on installation or in tuning. Occasionally, I have seen fuel solenoids on wet systems fail to open and blow the engine. Does that mean all wet systems suck? Hell no. Most of the time it's because Delbert forgot to hook it back up to the wiring harness.

User error with nitrous is what causes the problems, not what brand or type of system is employed. Dry systems work well on certain applications and wet sytems also work well for certain applications. Making a blanket statement like "dry systems suck" is ignorant.

 

I am going to install the NOS dry kit on mine. I just dont like the Idea of spraying fuel into my intake.
The dry kit is no more safe than the wet kit and the dry kit is more expensive. The NOS dry kit is about 1000 and the others are around 6 to 700.
Each kit, if you do it right, should be totally safe none is more dangerous, its the saftey features you use that makes all the difference.


[Modified by enhance, 8:14 PM 3/26/2002]


[Modified by enhance, 8:14 PM 3/26/2002]

 

BS, huh...Boy, been on here for a whole day and I've already started something. You obviously run a dry system. For what it's worth let me give you a little background info on my 'experience.' I've built everything from 300 horse small block street mills to 500" NHRA Pro-Stock motors and everything in between including more nitrous fed motors than I care to count. I've got many years experience in tuning N2O fed NMCA/NSCA/NMRA and local bracket cars. I'm also the largest NOS dealer in the state of Arkansas...I'm not saying I 'know' everything, but I've got more N2O experience than the majority of the people I've come in contact with...Dry systems ARE NOT as safe as wet systems; the ONLY exception to this rule is some of the NMCA mills utilizing dry systems that use 96+ lb/hr injectors and aftermarket seqential EFI like the FAST (formerly FelPro). I've seen more motors blow up on dry kits than ANY other...It's a problem we're currently having with all of the import guys. They'll bring in their dry 'Venom' systems and wonder why their VTEC just bit the dust on a 75 shot. You can argue with me all you want on this; I know better. BTW: I don't even sell Nitrous Express...
-Jeb Burnett

 

Then explain to me why after running over 200#'s of nitrous through my 11:1 ZR-1 in the last 6 months I have not had any problems. This is with a 150 dry shot. The only ZR-1 nitrous failures that I have seen have been with wet kits. John Stewart (aka MR. Nitrous), rest his soul, blew the bottom end out of his ZR-1 with a wet kit. I know of 3 ZR-1 failure w/ wet kits. None with dry. Do know how much a LT-5 engine runs?

Or explain how we ran over 1500#'s of nitrous at a 125 shot through a Mustang w/o any of your so-called "infector" problems?

Of course there are certain applications where I would not reccommend a dry kit. But at the same time there are also many cars that perform well with them.

Just because you deal with a bunch of dumb chit ricers that granade their engines does not mean jack squat.

At 27 you think you know it all and have seen it all. Yea right. :rolleyes:

 

You're awfully sensitive... Tuning DOES indeed play a great role in the N2O game. If you tune your combination correctly you're going to have less problems with either system; but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about dry vs. wet on a stock application. Dry kits AREN'T as safe nor are they as easy to tune as a wet kit. For a user that is NOT as experienced as say you are apparently, a dry kit is simply a problem waiting to happen!! I'm not slamming your combination but I am telling you my experience with N2O which is considerable. You're close on my age but that has really nothing to do with anything. Youth doesn't necessarily mean a lack of experience and I've been running and tuning N2O for over 10 years. During that time I've seen a lot of N2O f*&kups; the majority of them were with dry systems. I'm not insulting you or your combination but when I'm attacked for something I've learned over many years of use I'm certainly not going to back down. Congrats on having a great running dry kit ZR1...I'll stick with my wet kit and maybe I'll see ya at the track...
-Jeb Burnett
PS- I've installed one kit on a ZR1 (dry) and there hasn't been any problems, but that doesn't mean I'm not uncomfortable with it...Perhaps the LT5's work better with dry kits than wets because of their manifold design which may induce fuel puddling on wet systems...I don't know...

 

jbernett,
What about the Dry system is so dangerous? I'm not talking about if you just bolt it on like some fool kid.
If you do everything the right way I cant see how it could be any more dangerous than the wet kit. Maybe you can enlighten me.
I see it this way. The NOS dry kit pumps more fuel thru the fuel rail when the nitrous is activated(in the C4 setups it does not rely on the computer to compensate, the kit does it). If you make sure your fuel injectors can handle(get bigger injectors) that and put all the safty steps it(FPSS, Window switch, etc) I dont see much risk.
Sure you run a risk of the fuel injectors locking up, but you are not spraying fuel into the intake and it sort of evens out the risk.
Whats your thoughts, i've never heard anyone say that about the dry kits before? Everywhere I read and people I have talked to say that there is no more risk in either setup.
This is the first posts I've seen that bad mouth dry kits.
What other safty steps do you recomend in running a dry kit? I am installing one in my 92 this summer.(I dont race so its for the occational 3 or 4 times a month)





[Modified by enhance, 9:49 AM 3/27/2002]

 

There is no FMU with a NOS dry kit. Only a nitrous pressure regulator that pressurizes the stock fuel pressure regulator, doubling the fuel pressure. Similar but not the same.

Not true. Most dry kits include a nitrous solenoid as well as a fuel pressure solenoid. The very little difference in the lists of components between dry and wet kits. Same # of solenoids, nozzle, line, switches, relays, etc.

This is the biggest crock. My fuel pressure spikes to 95psi when I hit the juice. My injectors handle this pressure with no problem what-so-ever. Here's another tidbit of info. GM hired NOS to develope the ZR-1 nitrous system. GM engineers worked hand in hand with NOS on the developement. Do you think they would have settled on a design that would "lock open or lock closed" the fuel injectors?

This is the only accurate statement you made. Wet systems do hit harder. That's fine for a car w/ slicks but sucks for a street car with street tires. The softer hit with a dry system works better when traction is limited. Sure you can use a progressive controller to lessen the hit of the wet system but that has problems too. They give the solenoids a workout that can lead to early solenoid failures.

Yea I bet you sell controllers too.

 

Bingo! you win a cookie. There are applications where dry is superior to wet. These applications are where the intake manifold that was never intended to carry wet fuel has problems with fuel distribution. In these cases a wet system with a single nozzle is forced to run overrich enough to handle the worst(leanest) cylinder. That means the other 7 cylinders are overrich to varying degrees.

The only time I would consider going to a single fogger wet system would be on a LS-1 based car. By design they limit the amount of fuel enrichment you can get and rely on lean O2 readings before the ECM richens the a/f ratios. The LS1 intake also seems to handle wet fuel well.

 

Both systems have thier good and bad points, I have personally used both wet and dry, I had a nasty backfire using a wet kit on my mustang about 7 years ago, I began using a dry system after that. With my current setup I spray the car directly out of the hole, I prefer a dry system for this since it is hard to equally distribute fuel with a wet kit at low RPM (unless using a direct port) I run a 30lb motorsport injector which happens to be a pintel style opposed to a plate, I have rarely seen a pintel style injector lock up. Tuning is also a big part of it, now a days there are alot of inexperienced people using nitrous, they just want the big shot but refuse to add an extra/bigger fuel pump to the car, retard timing or use bigger injectors etc.......
On an LT-1 style car I prefer using a dry set up, on the LS-1 motor I wouldnt even think of using a dry set up. I have done many nitrous installs on F-Body's, Vettes. What works best for one car may not work best on another.

Bottom line is not to get greedy or be in a hurry, these things will get you a blown motor quickly, As far as the WET vs. DRY debate, everyone will continue to have thier own opinion.

Mike

 

MVR 155,
Did you have to do any custom tunning to support the 30lb injectors? I am going to get new injectors for when I install my NOS dry kit and I wasnt sure if I should use the 24# or 30# FMS injectors. What do you think?

 

The fact that the ZR-1 also has double the injectors might also have something to do with it. It can deliver more fuel before reaching a hydro-lock condition.

Your demeanor,on the other hand, could use a little less fuel. :rolleyes:

 

Goodness...I love starting sh#t!! I'm basing my OPINION on observed cases over many years of nitrous use and tuning. I'm going to try and address every point:
-I believe I stated that tuning is critical with EITHER system...It doesn't matter whether you're running a wet or a dry system; lean it out and it goes boom, period.
-I consider NOS' nitrous fuel pressure regulator an FMU, each company has its own terminology. They all do the same thing on a dry kit; they increase fuel pressure to the rails and raise the injector 'rating' to compensate for the N2O hit. Therin lies the problem...With few exceptions causing an injector to run at over 100% duty cycle is not good, that's why manufacturers' rate them at 85% duty cycle. There are two basic types of injectors, the ball and pintle, and the disk type. The disk injectors (like Lucas) are rated for handling MUCH more pressure (perhaps I should've clarified this) due to their design... The pintle type injectors are the ones most prone to hydrostatic lock due to increased fuel pressure. The FMS (Ford Motorsport) injectors are of the pintle type and their the ones I've seen fail most often. Don't get me wrong, I use them myself on my 396; but they don't have to compensate for a dry nitrous system either. When you're dealing with fuel injectors it's better to correct the pulse width within the base fuel map than to try and compensate via fuel pressure. If you go from your 24 lb/hr injectors to a 30 lb/hr injector, are you going to go in and adjust your fuel map?
-I'll sell a progressive controller if someone asks for one...Do I use or recommend them? No... I've seen too many problems with controllers; I prefer a simpler set-up. Microswitch, window-switch, and fuel pressure safety switch.
-You are NEVER going to convince me that running over 100% duty cycle (which is effectively what you do when you raise line pressure that high) is either good or safe. Case in point; an NMCA car that has a BIG big block, a dry N2O system, and EFI. This motor will be used strictly with N2O and as such the owner sizes his injectors accordingly and runs 45-50 psi of fuel pressure...Where does the enrichment come from? Simple, he adds pulse width via the EFI to compensate for the HUGE N20 hit. That is the ONLY way I feel a dry system is safe. But, you want to drive the car around town and have it retain its drivability? Well, sizing injectors for dry N2O use without having two separate programs for fuel mapping is going to leave you VERY disappointed. When the N2O is not in use you will have a pig; it will be fat across the board because your computer program has the pulse width set for 24# injectors and it's holding a much larger injector open for the same amount of time it would for normal driving and thus you are spraying more fuel in than is needed. Now, lets say you go in and install your FMS 30# injectors and have the pulse width narrowed to compensate for those big injectors on a relatively stock motor (which it will never do completely because you get to a point that you can't go below in pulse width without having flow problems); then you spray your dry kit on it...The FMU ('scuse me "nitrous fuel pressure regulator") bumps the fuel pressure to 80 psi and all of a sudden your 30# injectors are now 55# injector that they were never designed to do, nor designed to operate at that pressure. What do you have then? You have hydrostatic lock... Maybe you get away with it for awhile, hell, maybe you're lucky and you NEVER have a problem. But, is it worth the risk? Not in my world.
-There are manifolds that don't work with wet kits...I totally agree with RatRacer on this one (shock, huh?). But, living with the idea that I may cause my injectors to go static doesn't make me a comfortable man. Once again, I don't remember what the Zed's have in them other than the fact that I believe they are 27# and have two (?) per cylinder; maybe that's the difference. But, an LT1 has a manifold that lends itself to wet flow, as does a LS1, and a TPI; if the choice is allowed, I'll go with a wet kit EVERY time! And, that includes a ZR1, I'd build a spacer plate between the runners and install a Fogger...
-As for imports, I dislike them, and that stupid movie aside; you can actually learn a lot from the guys that KNOW what they're doing. Most of the imports have engine technology that is miles ahead of the domestics (much to my chagrin). They have closer tolerances, better combustion chambers, etc... And a lot of them are simply stronger, witness the MKIV Supra. However, an engine's an engine and EITHER will go boom with improper tuning on juice. It's just that I've witnessed more of BOTH go boom on dry kits.
*I'm not going to change my mind here and I'll argue with God himself over the wet vs. dry debate. I form my opinion over experience and observed incidents. If that offends some of you, get over it...I'll either debate you on here or at the track. YMMV..
-Jeb Burnett
PS- I'm sure I left a couple of points out...I'll reread again if I did. Just givin' ya my $.02

 

I remember Jacob asking about 'safety measures'... With either kit (I'm not going to restate why I think you should go 'wet') I would install a window switch and a fuel pressure safety switch. You can get the fuel pressure switch from NOS and also the window switch; but buy the window switch from MSD (I'll give you the part #) and save A LOT of money. The fuel pressure safety switch will save you if the pressure drops below an acceptable level whether it's caused by a clog, a bad pump, etc. But, then again it's really only truly applicable to a wet system...I think the switch will cut off if it sees under 40 psi which your dry kit will have grenaded the motor by then...Sorry, couldn't help it. ;-)
FWIW: I run a wet kit (obviously) that consists of an old 5151 plate, Cheater solenoids, a custom 1 gallon aluminum fuel cell mounted where the battery used to be (kind of like Billy Foutris of Speedway Racing in Canada) with a Holley 'Blue' carb pump and regulator feeding the fuel side of the N2O. I run VP C16 in the fuel cell and standard 93 Premium in the tank. Since it's a low pressure fuel system I use standard carb-style N2O and fuel jets which offers a little better degree of tunability due to the abundance of available jets and data.
-Either way, you'll enjoy N2O...It's a lot of fun until the bottle runs out!! That's kinda why I like to have a lot of motor, too.
Jeb Burnett