does the 165 computer need a different knock sensor?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: toledo ohio
does the 165 computer need a different knock sensor?
i upgraded the ecm to a 165 in my '85. i think i may be getting some false knock counts. i still have the '85 knock sensor in there. is the '89 ks less sensitive? if you have upgraded to the 165 ecm, do you use the later knock sensor?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,838
Likes: 31
From: Australia
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,036
Likes: 346
From: Anaheim CA
The ESC module is also involved. It's between the knock sensor and the ECM. They are different for the various years. The signal from the ESC module has to be compatible with the ECM or you'll get a Code 43.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,616
Likes: 111
I must ask, what has prompted you to make the conversion? I am sure GM went to the 165 for reasons after 85, but I have an 85 with many mods as listed below and my stock (original) ECM with a tuned PROM works very well with my mods listed.
I know the 85 ECM is "slower" from what I understand, but I can tell you for certain, the ECM has presented no problems with my mods at all; TPIS did a tune based on their parts and they must have hit it pretty well, never have had it dyno tuned though...would love to, probably needs it, but overall very pleased with throttle response, etc.!
I know the 85 ECM is "slower" from what I understand, but I can tell you for certain, the ECM has presented no problems with my mods at all; TPIS did a tune based on their parts and they must have hit it pretty well, never have had it dyno tuned though...would love to, probably needs it, but overall very pleased with throttle response, etc.!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 5
I must ask, what has prompted you to make the conversion? I am sure GM went to the 165 for reasons after 85, but I have an 85 with many mods as listed below and my stock (original) ECM with a tuned PROM works very well with my mods listed.
I know the 85 ECM is "slower" from what I understand, but I can tell you for certain, the ECM has presented no problems with my mods at all; TPIS did a tune based on their parts and they must have hit it pretty well, never have had it dyno tuned though...would love to, probably needs it, but overall very pleased with throttle response, etc.!
I know the 85 ECM is "slower" from what I understand, but I can tell you for certain, the ECM has presented no problems with my mods at all; TPIS did a tune based on their parts and they must have hit it pretty well, never have had it dyno tuned though...would love to, probably needs it, but overall very pleased with throttle response, etc.!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,616
Likes: 111
I understand; I know from experience, but is there that much more enthusiasm from tuners for the 86+ pre OBDII cars to warrant the swap and all the necessary item changes to accomodate the swap effectively???
interesting question for me; To me, if I am going to go through the brain damage of the swap, is there a better, newer ECM for us to go to rather than 1986 technology that will allow us to have the cars tuned a little easier? maybe from FAST or some company like that???? curious for myself actually!
Interesting
interesting question for me; To me, if I am going to go through the brain damage of the swap, is there a better, newer ECM for us to go to rather than 1986 technology that will allow us to have the cars tuned a little easier? maybe from FAST or some company like that???? curious for myself actually!
Interesting
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,838
Likes: 31
From: Australia
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap/
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know
Joe Kucinski
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2
Michael S. Palmer
2027 Corvette vs The World: Every C8 vs Its Closest Competitor
Joe Kucinski
10 Most Common Corvette Problems of the Last 20 Years!
Joe Kucinski
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 16,836
Likes: 337
From: Database Error Indiana
Also, not many have the actual chips needed. I read someplace, they are hard to come by. Another thing it does is eliminate the MAF module that is 85 only.
Race Director
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 14,924
Likes: 9
From: Merritt Ils Fl
To clarify a point or two:
Rock Auto, my trusty cross reference manual, shows the same knock sensor for 85 and 86. I did not go beyond 86. I am still using the same KS after switching to the 165 ECM
All correct in the reason for the ECM swap. I did it to be able to use more sources for data logging programs and chip burning hardware. The 85 ECM will support about any mod you throw at it IF you have the capability to burn that chip and have access to the required bins. Dumping the Burn off Module is an added bennie.
Rock Auto, my trusty cross reference manual, shows the same knock sensor for 85 and 86. I did not go beyond 86. I am still using the same KS after switching to the 165 ECM
All correct in the reason for the ECM swap. I did it to be able to use more sources for data logging programs and chip burning hardware. The 85 ECM will support about any mod you throw at it IF you have the capability to burn that chip and have access to the required bins. Dumping the Burn off Module is an added bennie.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,616
Likes: 111
I am running the mini which eliminates the CSI and I have the PROM for it (85 ECM); all done by TPIS......no problems at all....car starts fast with the turn of the key; hot or cold
I see your points......I would like to think (hope) there will be (is) a high quality ECM for these early C4's; maybe there is already or for that matter any multi-point fuel injected GM car pre-dating the OBDII systems; surely there are guys running fuel injected (multi-point) after market power trains in sorts of GM cars that can be callibrated for an early C4 need.
I am partial to the 85 since I don't have to worry about VATS; anti-lock brakes (not a fan), and not to mention the unsightly 3rd brake light....
good blend of old and new(er) school
I see your points......I would like to think (hope) there will be (is) a high quality ECM for these early C4's; maybe there is already or for that matter any multi-point fuel injected GM car pre-dating the OBDII systems; surely there are guys running fuel injected (multi-point) after market power trains in sorts of GM cars that can be callibrated for an early C4 need.
I am partial to the 85 since I don't have to worry about VATS; anti-lock brakes (not a fan), and not to mention the unsightly 3rd brake light....
good blend of old and new(er) school
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,551
Likes: 36
From: Jenks OK
I am running the mini which eliminates the CSI and I have the PROM for it (85 ECM); all done by TPIS......no problems at all....car starts fast with the turn of the key; hot or cold
I see your points......I would like to think (hope) there will be (is) a high quality ECM for these early C4's; maybe there is already or for that matter any multi-point fuel injected GM car pre-dating the OBDII systems; surely there are guys running fuel injected (multi-point) after market power trains in sorts of GM cars that can be callibrated for an early C4 need.
I am partial to the 85 since I don't have to worry about VATS; anti-lock brakes (not a fan), and not to mention the unsightly 3rd brake light....
good blend of old and new(er) school
I see your points......I would like to think (hope) there will be (is) a high quality ECM for these early C4's; maybe there is already or for that matter any multi-point fuel injected GM car pre-dating the OBDII systems; surely there are guys running fuel injected (multi-point) after market power trains in sorts of GM cars that can be callibrated for an early C4 need.
I am partial to the 85 since I don't have to worry about VATS; anti-lock brakes (not a fan), and not to mention the unsightly 3rd brake light....
good blend of old and new(er) school
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,838
Likes: 31
From: Australia
Where you now upload the tune to your prom burner
( and do the burn / swap / burn routine );
you simply upload the same tune direct from your laptop to the Ostrich and the engine is running on that tune.
Want to change something as you are driving ? just upload another tune ( hopefully someone else is at the wheel) without turning engine off
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: toledo ohio
the main reason i changed to the 165 is the faster data rate for dataloging--8192 baud vs 160 --roughly 50x faster/more data
im using a lc1 wideband and i can use the 165WB $6E bin that's out there.
i bought an autoprom and some chips, and now im doing my own tuning. its something i always wanted to do.
i tried it with the '870 ecm, but the data rate was just too slow.
the swap was really very easy to do. i think it was worth it.
there is much more support for '165 tuning out there, especially on thirdgen.
i ended up buying a ks for an '89-they're different from the 84-86.
hard to tell if there is much difference.
im using a lc1 wideband and i can use the 165WB $6E bin that's out there.
i bought an autoprom and some chips, and now im doing my own tuning. its something i always wanted to do.
i tried it with the '870 ecm, but the data rate was just too slow.
the swap was really very easy to do. i think it was worth it.
there is much more support for '165 tuning out there, especially on thirdgen.
i ended up buying a ks for an '89-they're different from the 84-86.
hard to tell if there is much difference.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 878
Likes: 2
From: BC
When are you getting the knock readings?
The Knock sensor and the module for it are external on both of these ECM's and is something that wouldn't have changed. Its the module that feeds the ECM with the knock activity so if your showing knock the issue is between the Knock Sensor and the Module - not the ECM.
If that makes sense.
The knock sensors on these cars are normally pretty good. When are you getting the knock counts? How much timing is being retarded? If you want to shoot me a datalog I'll take a look if you like...
Dan
The Knock sensor and the module for it are external on both of these ECM's and is something that wouldn't have changed. Its the module that feeds the ECM with the knock activity so if your showing knock the issue is between the Knock Sensor and the Module - not the ECM.
If that makes sense.
The knock sensors on these cars are normally pretty good. When are you getting the knock counts? How much timing is being retarded? If you want to shoot me a datalog I'll take a look if you like...
Dan
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,036
Likes: 346
From: Anaheim CA
For an upgraded version of these old ECMs you might want to look at Bob Rauscher's solution at www.dynamicefi.com
In my opinion, RBob (as he's known on thirdgen.org) is the most knowledgeable tuner around for the P4 ECMS. He's an expert on both the circuitry and software. He has written a bunch of tuning articles on thirdgen.
In my opinion, RBob (as he's known on thirdgen.org) is the most knowledgeable tuner around for the P4 ECMS. He's an expert on both the circuitry and software. He has written a bunch of tuning articles on thirdgen.
