LD85

Well, I got it in and all and all it was a very simple and smooth installation.
I indicated the BH to make sure the mount hole was concentric with the crank, then bolted everything in

The Torque arm bracket fit perfectly but I did drill two holes in the top of the bracket so I could use two 1/2 -13 bolts and nuts on the top of the beam, the same as the bottom of the beam.

You will see some SS Allen head bolts which I used because the bolt kit I received was missing these bolts and the hardware store were, amazingly, all out of Grade 8 Hex Bolts.

All that I need to do is bleed my new slave, this has been one true PITA to bleed, but I will get that done this week.

I did drive the car and the clutch engagement is only 1/2" off the floor board which ain't right, but I will get this resolved this week.

Also, I need to add that the Keisler guys are a class act, they answered all of my questions, and tailored the quote to eliminate parts that I already had,

another company that I called said "to take their quote in its entirety or leave it", essentially I believe they were too busy to work with me.

Also, the Keisler tech guys called and PM'd me to make sure that I had all of the parts and offered to help in any way, even offered their cell phone #'s for me to call on the weekend,, service above and beyond in my opinion.

So KUDOS to Keisler !!!!!!!!!!

Pics below are of ZF BH and 4+3 BH and ZF tranny and TKO tranny, I used all 4+3 hydraulic slave and master

Also, you can use a bolt on TOB costing $350 or a slip on HOWE 82870 TOB costing @ $150

engle1147

Did you have to do a custom length (longer) drive shaft too?

LD85

No, but you need a 31 spline yoke and a 1330/1310 forged U-joint, I just pressed in the new U-joint into the drive shaft and then into the new yoke.

johnnymo63

Way to go!!!
Did you use the same flywheel, clutch and pressure-plate from the ZF?
Still hydraulic clutch? Does it feel any different to drive?

I passed your house Saturday to see if you needed any help, but the garage door was down. Didn't look like anybody was home, so I didn't stop.

LD85

Johnny, I worked on it until @ 6:00 hen called it quits. I used the AM push type PP that I already had but no, you can not use the ZF parts, none of them

I will let you drive it once i get the clutch bled,,,, the clutch wont release until I it the floor board , but I hope to get it bled tomorrow...

I used the 85 clutch slave and master parts this time, but when I take it back out, I will use the Howe 82870 or a bolt on TOB.

Stop in any time....

5abivt

Awesome ! I really like the bracket for the trans on the c beam. Did you make it? I'm sure you mentioned it before I'm just tired and lazy to look back

LD85

It is the Keisler bracket, 1/2" thick (12.6mm) bottom and 3/8" thick (9.5mm) sides.

http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php...o-600-.64.html

AGENT 86

rj8806

Larry:
Your very last picture showing our torque arm bracket.....is that what you were referring to in our e-mails?

I need to call you...so you look for a phone call.



Richard
Tech Support

LD85

yes!

rj8806

Larry and I are on the phone right now talking and if you who are watching this thread can look at his last picture showing our torque arm bracket, where he drilled and installed 2 allen head bolts, the 2 holes are missing and should've been there. Instead of the 2 allen heads, you can re-use the original torque arm bolts in that place. See below.


Richard

LD85

Thanks Richard! It only makes sense that the C-beam bolt onto the TKO TQ Arm Bracket the same as it bolts onto the ZF tail housing....

Next Time I will use my 4+3 bolts to hold it all together!

Thanks a million for the great service followup!

USAsOnlyWay

Excellent Larry, I can't wait to see the Howe setup on there and hear your opinions on it.

It really looks like the installation of the C-beam is cake with this kit. No more wiggling and angling to get it up past the tailshaft, but rather this slides up to it because of the shorter length of the TKO and since it just bolts to the bottom cross mount, true?

LD85

The slip on setup might go on soon, I do not like the feel of the fork/slave/tob......and the slip on is easy to bleed

Putting the c-beam in is effortless now,, I would bet that I could remove my exhaust, pull the c-beam and remove the tranny in less than 1-hour now.

LD85

Well, I pulled the tranny back out and did a couple of things,

1. Keisler did not send directions, not that I needed them, but they did show that I should have used the stock C-beam bolts instead of the four 1/2-13 bolts & nuts that I went and bought. So I took the bolts out and put the stock bolts in, much, much easier to tighten everything up progressively, rather than putting the rigid c-beam in with the TQ adapter plate bolted on to the beam already. No directions was not a big deal for me, but could be for a novice.

2. I installed a RAM 78125 slip on Hydraulic bearing which requires a 3/4" bore Clutch master and is a compressed height of 1.700" , BUT, I do not recommend using this TOB, preferably I would use the Howe 82876 because it is plenty short (compressed height of 1.390") and allows you to use the .045" thick spacers that come with the unit.. I used the RAM 78125 but I had to take the TKO front retainer off the tranny,, put it in a lathe and skimmed off @ .080" off the face of the retainer, which has a domed face,,, no shims from RAM were used. Ideally you need an air gap of .150" - .200,, but I ended up with an air gap of .125, which some manufacturers claim is sufficient.

3. I ran -3 lines from the 3/4" bore Wilwood slave to the Hydraulic TOB and also bought a 1/4-28 speed bleeder to put into the -3 TOB bleed line,,, its a one man job and very very easy to bleed.



Pic of the RAM TOB

Slalom4me

Enjoying following along during this write-up.

Great photos, as always.

.

LD85

Thanks,!


Well, I've finally been able to drive the TKO for @ 75 miles. Until I put the RAM Hydraulic TOB in to replace the 4+3 bent clutch fork, I had only driven it 1.5 miles.

So, the shifter is notchy, more so than the ZF that I had. I am told that the shifter will slowly become less notchy as I put more miles on it.

First thing I noticed is how quiet it is compared to the ZF, today I was driving on the interstate and I was amazed at how much quieter the TKO is, very noticeably quieter.

In the city, the car is like a basic 4- speed which I like, on the interstate, the 5th gear allows for driving from 55mph at 1750 rpm up to 85mph at 2500rpm. The TKO covers the typically driving MPH ranges perfectly.


All in all, I think the ZF has a more solid shifter feel because the shift mechanism is attached to the shift rail, so the shift action inline with the the shift rail pivot point.

The TKO shift mechanism is off to the side of the shift rial by @ 2.5" so there is some small moment that is felt, I believe as a result.


Take the better 600 Ft/lbs TQ rating, the weight savings of 65lbs, (TKO weighs 100lbs & ZF weighs 165lbs)and the simplicity and multitude of clutch, Flywheel and Hydraulic options, and probably a lesser cost to repair with more service centers,,,and I think the TKO makes an excellent replacement for the 4+3

BTW, I have 3:45 rear gears.

TKO 600:

2.87 1st
1.89 2nd
1.28 3rd
1.00 4th
0.64 5th


4+3:
1st = 2.88:1
2nd = 1.91:1
3rd = 1.33:1
4th = 1.00:1
4OD = 0.67:1


ZF S6-40:
1st-2.68
2nd-1.80
3rd-1.29
4th-1.0
5th-0.75
6th-0.50

In terms of MPH and using 3.45 gears, the difference is 1-2 MPH until the 5th or 6th gear is used, I agree,,, numerically they are not identical, but 1-2 MPH is close enough to the same for me, 1st has a little more SOTP pickup but 2nd - 5th is no SOTP diff.

1st gear
TKO 2000 RPM = 15 mph
ZF 2000 RPM = 17 mph

2nd gear
TKO 2000 RPM = 23 mph
ZF 2000 RPM = 25 mph

3rd gear
TKO 2000 RPM = 34 mph
ZF 2000 RPM = 34 mph

4th gear
TKO 2000 RPM = 44 mph
ZF 2000 RPM = 44 mph

5th gear
TKO 2000 RPM = 67 mph
ZF 2000 RPM = 59 mph

rj8806

Larry:
The more you drive (and shift) the quicker it will loosen up. The TKO's are very tight and notchy until the breakin period. They claim the breakin is 500 miles but the key is shifting. If you were to live and drive in NYC, it would be broke in inside of one day.
Also, fluid is a big factor. I know you and I have talked about this but the GM syncromesh is going to give you a better shift quality over standard ATF. I usually recommend that you break in the trans with the ATF and then at the 500 mile mark, dump it, inspect it, and refill using the GM syncromesh(because it is so bloody expensive).


Richard
Tech Support

1989vette

Sorry to jump off topic, but you both seem very knowledgeable and i really enjoyed the writeup. I'm about to swap from an automatic to a t5 mustang tranny. I bought a custom quicktime bellhousing that bolts the ford transmission to my block, but my question is about the tob i should use. Do either you have any idea what length is required? The input shaft on the ford is 3/4" longer than the chevy input shaft, does this mean i need a 3/4" longer tob? Once again sorry to jump off topic, hopefully someone can spread some light on it.

mseven

very nice, I like the fact that not only is it stronger set-up but it is 65lbs. lighter, now that's cool.