brake upgrade
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
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From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
Hi Playdixie ,i would consider the C5 upgrade ,it was cheap for me here in Italy, even more for you there In USA. If you remember some pics of my 85 i had 4 x18" "wagons" from a donor C5,but here personal taste is the key..."de gustibus non est disputandum".For sure the Wagons are the cheapest choice...
if you go this route remember your off set of 36 mm, i needed spacers for my set up.You need adapters for the calipers,as suggested, change the brake caliper hoses to steel brainded.The bias spring for the master cylinder is important.
Alberto-Italy
if you go this route remember your off set of 36 mm, i needed spacers for my set up.You need adapters for the calipers,as suggested, change the brake caliper hoses to steel brainded.The bias spring for the master cylinder is important.
Alberto-Italy
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Bias spring is in the master cyl that determines how much of the pressure/oil goes to the front or rear. Since 80% of the braking force is on the fronts, that's usually where the bias goes. A different spring will put a little more on the rears to utilize those a bit more to help braking in corners and to help lessen the "nose-dive" that takes place with good brakes. This also works better because the ABS will prevent the ***-end from locking up as the weight transfer takes place.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,660
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I thank everybody for their input....I found zo6 brake/caliper set on ebay and the adaptor plates....going to do the front only first....are there going to be any other fitment issues besides the adaptor plates?...getting that I have to change a spring on a cylinder?....where do I get the replacement?....
If that is the case, you can use a spacer/adaptor to move the wheel out a little. Most wheels (sawblades anyway) are cone shaped inside, so the farther out you go the bigger the space
if you have to get spacer/adaptors to push the wheels out and off the calipers, look for EZaccessories on FleaBay. They have good prices on nice billet adaptors and they have every size you could wish for.
I think you can google them and find the website as well. Its about $60 a pair for the spacers about 3/4 to 1" thick. Studs included, even nuts.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 60
From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
thanks so much for the information....just a few questions...where can I gt these "bis" springs?...secondly, someone mentioned my pedal will be "mushy" with this upgrade.....is that a certainty?...going to try this job at home and don't want to end up doing a lot of re'engineering....there's just me and my fsm..
Race Director
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From: Central TX
C5 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 60
From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 22
The pedal feel is going to be a little different because.....
the master cylinder is a pump. It moves a measured amount of fluid when you push the lever (pedal) and that fluid is how the brake pads are pushed against the rotor. Hydraulics, fluid power.
now, knowing you move 8cc (just a random number to help explain) when the pedal is pushed, the old calipers did their job well with that 8cc of fluid and the pressure of that step on the pedal.
The NEW calipers are larger...that means either it takes more that 8cc to make them move, OR they move a little less with the same amount of fluid that the pump (pedal) produces. Now it takes more like 12cc to get the same results because the new caliper is bigger inside. This is how hydraulics work....they take applied pressure and transmit that to a surface area...ex: PSI X the number of sq inchs = force on the part. In this case, its the calipers piston where the old ones had ONE piston and the new ones have TWO. So it takes a bit more fluid to move the 2 pistons the same distance as the ONE. See? its easy.
So, the effect is that the pedal has to move farther to get the bigger calipers to do the same work because they need MORE fluid since they are bigger. The pump has to move more fluid. The way that happens is that the pedal has to move farther.
Either you accept the "feel" of the pedal as is, or you can search for a master cylinder (the pump) that is larger and will move more fluid with less of a stroke from the brake pedal. Most folks just learn to like it as is and have no issue with the feel of the pedal after a little getting used to. Some complain that it gets close to the floor but none have ever complained that the brakes were not there...if anything, once enough fluid has moved....the new, bigger brakes grab like a walmart security guard that thinks you stole some bananas......
It'll be ok...
the master cylinder is a pump. It moves a measured amount of fluid when you push the lever (pedal) and that fluid is how the brake pads are pushed against the rotor. Hydraulics, fluid power.
now, knowing you move 8cc (just a random number to help explain) when the pedal is pushed, the old calipers did their job well with that 8cc of fluid and the pressure of that step on the pedal.
The NEW calipers are larger...that means either it takes more that 8cc to make them move, OR they move a little less with the same amount of fluid that the pump (pedal) produces. Now it takes more like 12cc to get the same results because the new caliper is bigger inside. This is how hydraulics work....they take applied pressure and transmit that to a surface area...ex: PSI X the number of sq inchs = force on the part. In this case, its the calipers piston where the old ones had ONE piston and the new ones have TWO. So it takes a bit more fluid to move the 2 pistons the same distance as the ONE. See? its easy.
So, the effect is that the pedal has to move farther to get the bigger calipers to do the same work because they need MORE fluid since they are bigger. The pump has to move more fluid. The way that happens is that the pedal has to move farther.
Either you accept the "feel" of the pedal as is, or you can search for a master cylinder (the pump) that is larger and will move more fluid with less of a stroke from the brake pedal. Most folks just learn to like it as is and have no issue with the feel of the pedal after a little getting used to. Some complain that it gets close to the floor but none have ever complained that the brakes were not there...if anything, once enough fluid has moved....the new, bigger brakes grab like a walmart security guard that thinks you stole some bananas......
It'll be ok...
Last edited by leesvet; Oct 18, 2014 at 06:02 PM.
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 60
From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
The pedal feel is going to be a little different because.....
the master cylinder is a pump. It moves a measured amount of fluid when you push the lever (pedal) and that fluid is how the brake pads are pushed against the rotor. Hydraulics, fluid power.
now, knowing you move 8cc (just a random number to help explain) when the pedal is pushed, the old calipers did their job well with that 8cc of fluid and the pressure of that step on the pedal.
The NEW calipers are larger...that means either it takes more that 8cc to make them move, OR they move a little less with the same amount of fluid that the pump (pedal) produces. Now it takes more like 12cc to get the same results because the new caliper is bigger inside. This is how hydraulics work....they take applied pressure and transmit that to a surface is PSI X the number of sq inchs = force on the part. In this case, its the calipers piston where the old ones had ONE piston and the new ones have TWO. So it takes a bit more fluid to move the 2 pistons the same distance as the ONE. See? its easy.
So, the effect is that the pedal has to move farther to get the bigger calipers to do the same work because they need MORE fluid since they are bigger. The pump has to move more fluid. The way that happens is that the pedal has to move farther.
Either you accept the "feel" of the pedal as is, or you can search for a master cylinder (the pump) that is larger and will move more fluid with less of a stroke from the brake pedal. Most folks just learn to like it as is and have no issue with the feel of the pedal after a little getting used to. Some complain that it gets close to the floor but none have ever complained that the brakes were not there...if anything, once enough fluid has moved....the new, bigger brakes grab like a walmart security guard that thinks you stole some bananas......
It'll be ok...
the master cylinder is a pump. It moves a measured amount of fluid when you push the lever (pedal) and that fluid is how the brake pads are pushed against the rotor. Hydraulics, fluid power.
now, knowing you move 8cc (just a random number to help explain) when the pedal is pushed, the old calipers did their job well with that 8cc of fluid and the pressure of that step on the pedal.
The NEW calipers are larger...that means either it takes more that 8cc to make them move, OR they move a little less with the same amount of fluid that the pump (pedal) produces. Now it takes more like 12cc to get the same results because the new caliper is bigger inside. This is how hydraulics work....they take applied pressure and transmit that to a surface is PSI X the number of sq inchs = force on the part. In this case, its the calipers piston where the old ones had ONE piston and the new ones have TWO. So it takes a bit more fluid to move the 2 pistons the same distance as the ONE. See? its easy.
So, the effect is that the pedal has to move farther to get the bigger calipers to do the same work because they need MORE fluid since they are bigger. The pump has to move more fluid. The way that happens is that the pedal has to move farther.
Either you accept the "feel" of the pedal as is, or you can search for a master cylinder (the pump) that is larger and will move more fluid with less of a stroke from the brake pedal. Most folks just learn to like it as is and have no issue with the feel of the pedal after a little getting used to. Some complain that it gets close to the floor but none have ever complained that the brakes were not there...if anything, once enough fluid has moved....the new, bigger brakes grab like a walmart security guard that thinks you stole some bananas......
It'll be ok...
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 8
probably i'm wrong,since Leesvette explanation seems effective.....but,assuming the fluid into the pipes is incompressible ,or relatively compressible ,when the new calipers are mounted and filled with new fluid and totally air bleedded,since the new two pistons compared with the old big one are just a fraction bigger,the result is an accetable pedal travel,not longer .When the system is bleeded from air bubble and the fluid is totally new (no igroscopic particles inside)the feel is good ,not mushy.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 60
From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
we'll find out...just put the 18 rims/wheels on...lot of room for any size calipers.....going to give it shot myself at home....doesn't seem like that big of a job with all that room...I'll let you all know how it comes out...
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,660
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BTW,
The job is lots easier if you can find the "self bleeders" screws for the calipers. They have a built in check valve that lets you pump the pedal to force air OUT, without having to close the screw to prevent sucking air IN. Very handy for when you have to work alone. All you need is some clear tubing to put on the bleed screw tip to run to a bottle so you can see whats coming out.
These are metric so you have to search the auto parts stores. if I could remember the exact size I'd pass it along...but I've lost that with my other set of keys.
Another thing to help a LOT with the pedal feel is the stainless lines. Get yourself a set of 4 braided stainless steel lines for the calipers and that alone will improve the pedal feel. The pressure created by the master cyl is great enough to actually cause the rubber lines to swell and when they do, that is absorbing a portion of the pressure that you want at the caliper. So some of the force generated by your foot is wasted by rubber hoses expanding much like the garden hose when you have a spray nozzle on the end....the hose swells a bit from the pressure. The stainless lines will stop this and 99% of your foots effort will get to the calipers....the end result is a firmer pedal since you are now applying force to hard parts and not soft parts...like hoses. The sets run about $100 IIRC but its worth every penny.
PS, thanks for the bump.
I was never satisfied with the simple answer. I always needed to know why, how, and how come. Really annoyed people with no patience, but the short answer to me, was not an answer, it was a statement, not a solution.
The job is lots easier if you can find the "self bleeders" screws for the calipers. They have a built in check valve that lets you pump the pedal to force air OUT, without having to close the screw to prevent sucking air IN. Very handy for when you have to work alone. All you need is some clear tubing to put on the bleed screw tip to run to a bottle so you can see whats coming out.
These are metric so you have to search the auto parts stores. if I could remember the exact size I'd pass it along...but I've lost that with my other set of keys.
Another thing to help a LOT with the pedal feel is the stainless lines. Get yourself a set of 4 braided stainless steel lines for the calipers and that alone will improve the pedal feel. The pressure created by the master cyl is great enough to actually cause the rubber lines to swell and when they do, that is absorbing a portion of the pressure that you want at the caliper. So some of the force generated by your foot is wasted by rubber hoses expanding much like the garden hose when you have a spray nozzle on the end....the hose swells a bit from the pressure. The stainless lines will stop this and 99% of your foots effort will get to the calipers....the end result is a firmer pedal since you are now applying force to hard parts and not soft parts...like hoses. The sets run about $100 IIRC but its worth every penny.
PS, thanks for the bump.
I was never satisfied with the simple answer. I always needed to know why, how, and how come. Really annoyed people with no patience, but the short answer to me, was not an answer, it was a statement, not a solution.
Last edited by leesvet; Oct 18, 2014 at 06:08 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 60
From: ft myers FL/Munising MI
BTW,
The job is lots easier if you can find the "self bleeders" screws for the calipers. They have a built in check valve that lets you pump the pedal to force air OUT, without having to close the screw to prevent sucking air IN. Very handy for when you have to work alone. All you need is some clear tubing to put on the bleed screw tip to run to a bottle so you can see whats coming out.
These are metric so you have to search the auto parts stores. if I could remember the exact size I'd pass it along...but I've lost that with my other set of keys.
Another thing to help a LOT with the pedal feel is the stainless lines. Get yourself a set of 4 braided stainless steel lines for the calipers and that alone will improve the pedal feel. The pressure created by the master cyl is great enough to actually cause the rubber lines to swell and when they do, that is absorbing a portion of the pressure that you want at the caliper. So some of the force generated by your foot is wasted by rubber hoses expanding much like the garden hose when you have a spray nozzle on the end....the hose swells a bit from the pressure. The stainless lines will stop this and 99% of your foots effort will get to the calipers....the end result is a firmer pedal since you are now applying force to hard parts and not soft parts...like hoses. The sets run about $100 IIRC but its worth every penny.
PS, thanks for the bump.
I was never satisfied with the simple answer. I always needed to know why, how, and how come. Really annoyed people with no patience, but the short answer to me, was not an answer, it was a statement, not a solution.
The job is lots easier if you can find the "self bleeders" screws for the calipers. They have a built in check valve that lets you pump the pedal to force air OUT, without having to close the screw to prevent sucking air IN. Very handy for when you have to work alone. All you need is some clear tubing to put on the bleed screw tip to run to a bottle so you can see whats coming out.
These are metric so you have to search the auto parts stores. if I could remember the exact size I'd pass it along...but I've lost that with my other set of keys.
Another thing to help a LOT with the pedal feel is the stainless lines. Get yourself a set of 4 braided stainless steel lines for the calipers and that alone will improve the pedal feel. The pressure created by the master cyl is great enough to actually cause the rubber lines to swell and when they do, that is absorbing a portion of the pressure that you want at the caliper. So some of the force generated by your foot is wasted by rubber hoses expanding much like the garden hose when you have a spray nozzle on the end....the hose swells a bit from the pressure. The stainless lines will stop this and 99% of your foots effort will get to the calipers....the end result is a firmer pedal since you are now applying force to hard parts and not soft parts...like hoses. The sets run about $100 IIRC but its worth every penny.
PS, thanks for the bump.
I was never satisfied with the simple answer. I always needed to know why, how, and how come. Really annoyed people with no patience, but the short answer to me, was not an answer, it was a statement, not a solution.
