I dont think it does with stock tuning, you're not giving it the gas it wants with the stock tune and the intake system is still choking it. The cam itself at 212/218@050' is good enough for street TPI-style, sure, but the ECM has only so much ability to adjust, and no I don't think the 24lb are giving you enough because the ECM will just pull them back to try to meet its parameters. I'm not certain it could get to your 350rwhp goal even then though, on a 350 SBC, which is why I still think a hoppier cam would be needed, to go with heads that flow more.

I think him having stroked his engine and the blueprinting got him most all of the extra power, now if he then tuned it, yeah he's in line for really big gains.

 

That being said can you please refer me to a mail order chip ? I can give detailed description of all the stuff I have on the engine. I also have a chip that only programmed out the VATS. If I'm not mistaken that is what is required to be programmed for the additional fuel my cam calls for.

 

My own chip is custom done on a dynojet, but Ed Wright's Fastchip is another I have in a box and it performed fine.

 

A tune would probably help you, but I don't think its nearly as important on an early MAF car. Those years seem to adapt pretty well to changes.

In addition to Holeshot, as you mentioned, check out Vic'89. I'm pretty sure his car is on a stock tune and he's gone 11.3x at 120 with a MR, cam, and ported 113s.

 

with this.



I do not agree with this^. Makes no sense at all.

 

Without more fuel, how would you make power by letting more air in? There is only so much adjustment in the ECM.

Why? Anytime you push the needs past the ECM parameters, you are going to have to tune it whether it is a carb, OBD1 or OBD2.

Put it on a dyno and it usually is a reality check. I have seen many people with performance gains from all kinds of crap that they feel. Dyno somehow disagrees.

 

Why would you want something off the shelf? Besides cheap and easy, that is. How about Arizona Speed and Marine? Bring it to them for a dyno tune. My chip still has VATS so I'm not sure why you need to burn it out. What has the VATS got to do with the fuel your cam needs?

 

The chip would be removed and programmed to adjust more fuel delivery.
I am still not sold on this being necessary. Tom mentioned MAF which my car is.
I've said it over and over my car has lots of power. Despite the 2:59 gears it really moves. I own a 385rwhp Z06 and it's also fast. My C4 can't run neck and neck with it but by no means does the Z06 leave it 100 yards in the rear view mirror. I've not been motivated to spend $1600 for a dyno tune at Automotive Diagnostics Specialist. They made the chip to eliminate VATS for me. I laughed at the fee they wanted and thought no more of it. I wish Vader86 could drive my car then tell me my cam isn't making any power. I've been thinking about this and there's no way my car is what it is now from long tube headers. To defend Vader86 he's never driven my car. I think he would change his mind if he did.
I'll say it again, I need to get some track time.

 

My chip is removed to flash it with UV lights to erase the program so they can reprogram it or so I think I have seen them do when they wave the UV light over it and reprogram it in the "burner".

I don't know for sure about MAF but I would think they have their limits of what they can adapt to. This is based on my buddy's 5.0 mustang that seemed better, dyno wise, with the adjustment of programming and his was MAF. I agree that they will put up with more of your mods. How much more and how good that stock program is might be a different story based on what I have seen of the mustang group that was doing dyno tunes that day.

Seriously? $1600 only? It comes with a first class hotel room loaded with hookers and blow, right? Back in the early 90s, Lingenfelter had to drill a hole in my exhaust, load equipment and data log after tuning and that cost me about $300, IIRC. Today, I can haul it to MN and they charge me $600 to strap it on a dyno. Those guys are trying to bend you over and probably no reach around.

I don't know about where you are but we had a Ford dealership that worked on trucks with a dyno. Problem is there were too many kids that would blame them for a car breaking on the dyno due to poor maintenance so they put an "Out of Order" sign and only allow trucks on it. Find one and go do a pull or two and see what you really have.

 

With a GTECH meter and a few minutes on a deserted road you will know what you have performance wise..



Ive loaned mine to several pro drag races around here and they said it was consistently within a fraction of a second of times at the track. Also it has been very close to dyno run results for my cars and others.

Very handy to not have to pay for testing over and over when you make changes to your vehicles.

 

Where do you put that meter and how do I "borrow" it?

 

Sticks to the windshield. Your a tad out of range to meet up for borrowing it

Mines the older model that looks like a radar detector more than that one. I may upgrade mine eventually.

Let me see if I can find a pic of my dinosaur one.

 

Heres what mine looks like. Handy as hell.

 

Look on Craigslist and Offerup. I found a couple for sale. Ebay $200.

 

Why don't you find someone with a scanner that can hook your car up, and at least let you know where your BLMs are falling?.. I don't know if you have changed your motor enough yet to where you need a tune , but it's always a good idea to check your air/fuel ratio after adding parts or making changes to your motor..Like mentioned, a maf engine will compensate a great deal to keep your BLMs at (128) where they belong , but once you go outside the ECMs corrective range your motor will be running either to rich ,or "worse" to lean, and either one can hurt your engine over time...If your BLMs are way off then you will know you need to do something to correct the problem...If you are going to be adding any more "go fast" parts to your motor, wait until your done before retuning your car ... That way you only have to do the tuning once...
I have seen motors that had lots of power and ran great, but when checked on a laptop or scanner, the tune was found to be way off...The one thing I see that's been changed on your motor that could require a retune is the 24 lb injectors, this could throw the BLMs off... .....WW

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What would you say is the corrective range for both MAF and SD? Now I'm curious.

Also, isn't the stock tune, be it MAF or SD a little wimpy based on the fact that GM has to meet emissions and whatever else whereas our warranties are long up? Reason I ask is that I have heard a couple of tuners mentioned that they have found gains even with stock engines by just tweaking the ECM because GM wasn't programming it as aggressively. I don't really get into the programming part so I'm honestly curious.

 

Not thinking of meeting up and borrowing it. Thinking more like visiting your car some dark night and buy it at a "5 fingered discount".

 

To be honest I don't really know for sure how much the ecm can compensate, I don't tune , but I have paid attention to what the tuners post.....I have heard anywhere from 5 points to as high a 12 points that the BLMs can be off in each direction and the ecm will compensate.. I guess a tuner would be the one to ask, but I never have asked this question...You are correct on the stock tunes , I have read of guys picking up quite a few hp by having there cars retuned from what the factory gives...I'm sure most of the cars built have a slight difference in the motors from one to another, but they all get the same GM generic tune for that model car...The first thing my tuner did to my 383 tune was to advance the timing, so I guess GM is a little conservative on there stock tunes....WW

 

I don't think anyone can slap down a hard number for that question. It totally depends on how one approaches their goal. Earlier, in another thread you said that "MAF can adjust more tha SD but I have my doubts it can do 100HP more."
I completely agree that MAF is more flexible for changes; it's measuring actual air flow, where SD is calc'ing it. However, I disagree about that it can't do a 100hp change. I've done more than than, w/SD. My CFI TA; originally rated by the factory at 170 chp, 305 CID engine. When I sold it, it was making ~300 chp (trapped in the low-mid 100's), returned ~24 mpg on the highway, had a stock like idle (so it met all of MY criteria) and it was doing all of this on the stock, original ECM and chip.

The Key is in the approach, and that must be one where you maintain the SHAPE of the tq curve. Radically changing the SHAPE of the tq curve obviously requires radically changing the shape of the fuel curve -something that can only be done practically, in a tune. What changes the shape of the tq curve the most? A "big" cam. Of course everything changes the shape of the curve some...but a cam is going to make the most radical change to the shape of the tq curve, and the resulting requirement for fueling changes.

If you can keep the shape of the tq curve pretty close to stock...only raise the whole thing, then you can "fix" your fueling requirements w/more injector, for the most part, and have a combo that runs and works "good enough", for most criteria. That is what I did. I increased my displacement by 95 CID. I ported my intake, added headers/exhaust, bored my TB's, added a cam, rockers, etc...but the porting/cam etc's effect on the SHAPE of the tq curve ended up being minimal, due to the added displacement. So I added about 40pph worth of injector, and finished that off with more fuel pressure, and I basically ended up w/ the stock engine...only more so...about 76% more so.



The way that a stock tune could be "wimpy" or "not aggressive" is in the A/F ratio at any given point in the map, and timing in any part of the map. The timing would be conservative mostly for safety reasons...the A/F ratio could be off for safety too, but on the low hp 80's motors, there is little to no danger of burn down from a lean mix. Mostly, if those are off, it's due to laziness/time constraints, and production tolerances of the hard parts.

I've seen a stockish LT1 (f-body) gain a whopping 40 RWH from a tune alone....That is crazy, and I'd say highly abnormal. I've seen my own C6 gain a puny 5 hp from a tune -there wasn't anything left on the table, with that factory tune. I feel that w/most factory tunes on stock hardware, the biggest gains are in ignition timing...not so much A/F ratio.

 

THAT is going to be the trick. Keep the curve so the ECM can work with the stock parameters. But still, would the MAF suddenly report "Hey! I'm supposed to see X amount of air but I am reading way more!" and freak out? I know SD probably would not cope with much more than what it was programmed to do. Thoughts?

Know anyone that tuned a stock L98 and seen what gains there are? Could it be that they were pushing more out of stock later? I don't get into programming so IDK. Thoughts?