Mailed to ZF.com about tranny fluid their response here
02-15-2016, 11:28 AM
#42
Instructor
You aren't looking hard enough! (Or at all).
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...m-members.html
I didn´t find any solution on the link, but probably is me and my poor english.
There's also an Amsoil website where you can order. IIRC, they also list dealers in your vicinity. You'll find them to be local "reps" like the Amway door-to-door model. (No relationship in business AFAIK.)
One time, the rep delivered to my door. The other time, I went and picked some up at a guy's home. Or...as mentioned above, you can order it from many people/places. They just don't sell it in stores.
Odd, but true. It's the one thing I'm not cray about with this company. I suspect it follows the model of pyramid schemes -- though the product's value can not be dismissed.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...m-members.html
I didn´t find any solution on the link, but probably is me and my poor english.
There's also an Amsoil website where you can order. IIRC, they also list dealers in your vicinity. You'll find them to be local "reps" like the Amway door-to-door model. (No relationship in business AFAIK.)
One time, the rep delivered to my door. The other time, I went and picked some up at a guy's home. Or...as mentioned above, you can order it from many people/places. They just don't sell it in stores.
Odd, but true. It's the one thing I'm not cray about with this company. I suspect it follows the model of pyramid schemes -- though the product's value can not be dismissed.
According to Amsoil´s webpage there is no distributor here, but I found a company that has Amsoil´s products, but only greases..... Maybe I can ask them to bring what I need on their next purchase.
I really have not found or didn´t know how to find "local "reps" like the Amway door-to-door model" you suggest.
Thanks anyway
Last edited by pifo1964; 02-15-2016 at 11:28 AM.
02-15-2016, 12:36 PM
#43
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Guys, I'd like to caution the method used for determining the effectiveness of an oil, in a MT gear box; the funny thing about oils is, in my understanding, the better protection and friction reduction that an oil provides (on gears, bearings etc), the worse "shifting" feel it provides -the very friction reduction that reduces wear to the components, also reduces the effectiveness of the synchros, somewhat.
Evidence of this is provided in the first post of this thread, in the comments given about each oil, by "ZF.com":
1. Castrol 10W60:
- good temperature stability
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- lower shift performance especially at lower temperatures
2. GM 5W30 (GM factory fill fluid)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
3. ATF GM Dexron IID (ZF TE-ML02 lubricant class 02F)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- lower scuffing and wear performance
- very good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
Notice that in this list of oils, wear and "shift performance" are somewhat inverse. The oil that provides the best wear, doesn't provide "very good shift performance" (esp @ lower temps), and vice/versa.
What needs to be done is oil sample analysis' at various mile intervals to determine the wear protection provided by each oil, and the longevity of the protection, provided by each oil. THOSE results need to be weighed against the subjective "shift feel", to lead to a choice that results in the best compromise between wear and shifting performance. Then, you've picked your oil.
Who does all ^that^? No one. No one on the 'Vette forums that I've seen, anyway. When we had a Dodge Stealth RT/TT (remember those?), it had a problematic trans (poor synchro longevity was a very common issue) and sure enough, our 88,000 mile, adult owned example lost 5th gear synchro during a casual 3-5 shift. Anyway, due to the "delicate" nature of that trans's synchros, the guys on the Stealth/3000GT Forums were super diligent about this topic of oils and had run some pretty comprehensive TESTS/oil samples using various oils. The results of those tests also supported the notion that the better the wear protection, the poorer the shift "feel", and vice/versa. Some folks that had "lost a synchro" had fixed the problem with one of the better shift - feeling oils...only to have bigger problems subsequently.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the oil that subjectively "shifts buttery smooth" may not actually be providing "buttery" lubrication for your trans internals. Oil samples will tell the story.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 02-15-2016 at 12:48 PM.
02-15-2016, 01:14 PM
#44
Drifting
Thread Starter
Guys, I'd like to caution the method used for determining the effectiveness of an oil, in a MT gear box; the funny thing about oils is, in my understanding, the better protection and friction reduction that an oil provides (on gears, bearings etc), the worse "shifting" feel it provides -the very friction reduction that reduces wear to the components, also reduces the effectiveness of the synchros, somewhat.
Evidence of this is provided in the first post of this thread, in the comments given about each oil, by "ZF.com":
1. Castrol 10W60:
- good temperature stability
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- lower shift performance especially at lower temperatures
2. GM 5W30 (GM factory fill fluid)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
3. ATF GM Dexron IID (ZF TE-ML02 lubricant class 02F)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- lower scuffing and wear performance
- very good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
Notice that in this list of oils, wear and "shift performance" are somewhat inverse. The oil that provides the best wear, doesn't provide "very good shift performance" (esp @ lower temps), and vice/versa.
What needs to be done is oil sample analysis' at various mile intervals to determine the wear protection provided by each oil, and the longevity of the protection, provided by each oil. THOSE results need to be weighed against the subjective "shift feel", to lead to a choice that results in the best compromise between wear and shifting performance. Then, you've picked your oil.
Who does all ^that^? No one. No one on the 'Vette forums that I've seen, anyway. When we had a Dodge Stealth RT/TT (remember those?), it had a problematic trans (poor synchro longevity was a very common issue) and sure enough, our 88,000 mile, adult owned example lost 5th gear synchro during a casual 3-5 shift. Anyway, due to the "delicate" nature of that trans's synchros, the guys on the Stealth/3000GT Forums were super diligent about this topic of oils and had run some pretty comprehensive TESTS/oil samples using various oils. The results of those tests also supported the notion that the better the wear protection, the poorer the shift "feel", and vice/versa. Some folks that had "lost a synchro" had fixed the problem with one of the better shift - feeling oils...only to have bigger problems subsequently.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the oil that subjectively "shifts buttery smooth" may not actually be providing "buttery" lubrication for your trans internals. Oil samples will tell the story.
.
Evidence of this is provided in the first post of this thread, in the comments given about each oil, by "ZF.com":
1. Castrol 10W60:
- good temperature stability
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- lower shift performance especially at lower temperatures
2. GM 5W30 (GM factory fill fluid)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- good scuffing and wear performance
- good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
3. ATF GM Dexron IID (ZF TE-ML02 lubricant class 02F)
- good synchronizer performance in sinter based synchronizer systems
- lower scuffing and wear performance
- very good shift performance especially at lower temperatures
Notice that in this list of oils, wear and "shift performance" are somewhat inverse. The oil that provides the best wear, doesn't provide "very good shift performance" (esp @ lower temps), and vice/versa.
What needs to be done is oil sample analysis' at various mile intervals to determine the wear protection provided by each oil, and the longevity of the protection, provided by each oil. THOSE results need to be weighed against the subjective "shift feel", to lead to a choice that results in the best compromise between wear and shifting performance. Then, you've picked your oil.
Who does all ^that^? No one. No one on the 'Vette forums that I've seen, anyway. When we had a Dodge Stealth RT/TT (remember those?), it had a problematic trans (poor synchro longevity was a very common issue) and sure enough, our 88,000 mile, adult owned example lost 5th gear synchro during a casual 3-5 shift. Anyway, due to the "delicate" nature of that trans's synchros, the guys on the Stealth/3000GT Forums were super diligent about this topic of oils and had run some pretty comprehensive TESTS/oil samples using various oils. The results of those tests also supported the notion that the better the wear protection, the poorer the shift "feel", and vice/versa. Some folks that had "lost a synchro" had fixed the problem with one of the better shift - feeling oils...only to have bigger problems subsequently.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the oil that subjectively "shifts buttery smooth" may not actually be providing "buttery" lubrication for your trans internals. Oil samples will tell the story.
.
More heavy is the oil, like as a 10w60, the better protection is...
02-15-2016, 01:57 PM
#45
OP (Christi@n) Nearly a year ago you posted this to the CF:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christi@n View Post
Just replace trans fluid with red line mtl, going out to take a ride, will come back soon to let you know how its feel
Your comment after the ride:
Red line MTL works very well, after 7 hours, improve are the shifted, like butter, all gear are smoother than old fluid were, that think was a 20 years old fluid.
Reverse gear also is very smooth, before with old fluid was very hard to engage, and sometimes malfunction on back up lights switchhappened, missing to turn on lights, no more
Great smell, typical petroleum, i love it, red colour,
Tomorrow i will re check level, think it will be necessary to add fluid a little, cause today car wasn't on perfect flat surface...
This is your post.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1589183489
If you're "so happy" why did you ask ZF for a "solution" 1 year later and then post back with suggestions that can't be validated for others. The debate has gone on for years, some (that have posted in this thread) seem to change branding as frequently as some change "drawers" - through the years there's been mention of failures using particular products. Some by people that say they understand.
I have enough OE/GM for likely the life of my car and the two NOS ZF's I've still got but I have used the Castrol because it was suggested by a shop owner and he offered the service "for free" - It's problem free. Is there better? 25+ years later I'd like to think that there's several likely products but the "decision" needs to be done by the owner after much thought.
I've never understood buttery smooth shifts and still don't, I've had Saginaw, Warner, Muncie and other M/T transmissions
RoyalPurple with their extensive product line if you actually reference the OE/GM 1052931 at last look they suggest their engine oil product. They will leave the M6 application blank with a footnote (a) in their charts.
This is current I believe:
http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/a..._Reference.pdf
Even Amsoil will make references to the OE product in their guides, they may "suggest" an alternative but they make certain to mention the OE spec for all - not just a ZF.
I didn't check the 3d suggestion by ZF in your original post but I imagine that if it's researched you can find NO concrete application for it. I saw Dexron IID and scratched that with out a second thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christi@n View Post
Just replace trans fluid with red line mtl, going out to take a ride, will come back soon to let you know how its feel
Your comment after the ride:
Red line MTL works very well, after 7 hours, improve are the shifted, like butter, all gear are smoother than old fluid were, that think was a 20 years old fluid.
Reverse gear also is very smooth, before with old fluid was very hard to engage, and sometimes malfunction on back up lights switchhappened, missing to turn on lights, no more
Great smell, typical petroleum, i love it, red colour,
Tomorrow i will re check level, think it will be necessary to add fluid a little, cause today car wasn't on perfect flat surface...
This is your post.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1589183489
If you're "so happy" why did you ask ZF for a "solution" 1 year later and then post back with suggestions that can't be validated for others. The debate has gone on for years, some (that have posted in this thread) seem to change branding as frequently as some change "drawers" - through the years there's been mention of failures using particular products. Some by people that say they understand.
I have enough OE/GM for likely the life of my car and the two NOS ZF's I've still got but I have used the Castrol because it was suggested by a shop owner and he offered the service "for free" - It's problem free. Is there better? 25+ years later I'd like to think that there's several likely products but the "decision" needs to be done by the owner after much thought.
I've never understood buttery smooth shifts and still don't, I've had Saginaw, Warner, Muncie and other M/T transmissions
RoyalPurple with their extensive product line if you actually reference the OE/GM 1052931 at last look they suggest their engine oil product. They will leave the M6 application blank with a footnote (a) in their charts.
This is current I believe:
http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/a..._Reference.pdf
Even Amsoil will make references to the OE product in their guides, they may "suggest" an alternative but they make certain to mention the OE spec for all - not just a ZF.
I didn't check the 3d suggestion by ZF in your original post but I imagine that if it's researched you can find NO concrete application for it. I saw Dexron IID and scratched that with out a second thought.
02-15-2016, 02:28 PM
#46
Drifting
Thread Starter
Yes remember it Was my post, and i confirm that redline works very well.
Though I written to ZF for two reasons
1. I always want the best fluids for my vehicles
2. I've recently discovered that redline doesn't completely meets the specs.
Discovered this just few months ago, I bought a case of havoline atf +4 for my dodge nitro trans... I wished to purchase redline c+ that they say is suitable for Chrysler trans, but after a lot of reaserch on the web I've find out that is not an approved aft+4, so I turned to havoline.
This is for aft+4 don't know for other fluid
Though I written to ZF for two reasons
1. I always want the best fluids for my vehicles
2. I've recently discovered that redline doesn't completely meets the specs.
Discovered this just few months ago, I bought a case of havoline atf +4 for my dodge nitro trans... I wished to purchase redline c+ that they say is suitable for Chrysler trans, but after a lot of reaserch on the web I've find out that is not an approved aft+4, so I turned to havoline.
This is for aft+4 don't know for other fluid
Last edited by Christi@n; 02-15-2016 at 02:52 PM.
02-19-2016, 02:48 AM
#49
Race Director
I endeavored to figure out why, tried polls, and searched for reasons to like, improve, or still WANT the Castrol. I couldn't. OTOH, I never saw evidence that it failed -- by anyone. And, many tried to say ZFDoc's posted higher wear was evidence. This is also contrary to the points made by Tom.
Since the GM/Amsoil shifts LESS smoothly over time, does that mean it lubricates better over time? Probably not. But I'm being "cute" to point out what's not necessarily obvious. I thought friction modifiers were what "helped" MTF syncros work better. I ASSUME they break down over time as the fluid "returns" to it's more native state. Maybe dirt plays a part too? It doesn't SOUND like that's a part of a transmission's problem...unless we are talking about metallic particles.
I will also add this thought... Since Castrol is really an engine oil, how can it contain properly designed (intentionally designed) friction modifiers necessary for syncros? And, with this obvious question, why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume this "omission" might be just a likely to create less-than-ideal shifting over a fluid specifically intended for a transmission?
Amsoil SEEMED the more likely fluid to match the properties of the original fluid. At this point, I can't remember why. I do know SOME of the fluids people try are flat "disapproved" and cautioned as "wrong" by: ZFDoc, distributors, etc... I've heard them say it directly. That said, I STILL can't remember reading about failure do to ANY product people have tried in these (notoriously) strong transmissions.
So...what was your point in the paragraph I quoted? I think I'm missing something...and would like to know. I'm especially curious to know if/what fluid has actually "killed" a ZF6? I would also add that my "buffet" of 3 types of fluid were a product of necessity rather than choice. Had GM kept producing the original fill, I doubt I would have ever tried anything else.
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 02-19-2016 at 02:56 AM.
02-19-2016, 02:57 AM
#50
Race Director
02-19-2016, 09:11 AM
#51
Drifting
Thread Starter
However was a misunderstanding.
I thought i've written buttery shift in my old post, and i have no re-readed it, so when wvzr-1 said me "I never understood", I said, oh oh seems i've written a nonsense. Ok for me was pretty clear that was shif like butter and i've said.
Instead It was about forum discussions
Last edited by Christi@n; 02-19-2016 at 09:12 AM.
02-19-2016, 11:02 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Posting a friend's research findings regarding this topic:
IOW, all the supposedly super-advance Group V esther-based lubricants are pretty bad in a lot of areas that really matter. I guess I should qualify this by saying that the quoted friend is a very smart, very informed person with a physics degree. He sold me this car, and used to post on here as MSR. So I'll be trying the Motylgear 10w-40 Gearbox Lubricant soon. Christian, for what it's worth, I would think that the Motylgear would be easier to get in your part of the world.
Originally Posted by friend
I didn’t like the shift feel with Motylgear as much as Redline, in the Vette. But, I’ve since read a bunch of industrial papers about lubricants. They have instilled a basic mistrust of Redline (among others). Given the difficulty in finding a ZF6 replacement, I think the Motylgear is probably the perfect lube to use. Make sure it’s the GL4-only stuff, marked “10W40."
On the lubricants, it turns out that there’s another property, one that isn’t measured/specified to the public, that determines an oil’s ability to maintain film strength in valve train, cylinder walls, and even in the bearings. The KV and HTHS numbers really only tell you how much oil pressure the engine can maintain. In the spots I mentioned, the forces are so high that there’s a completely different property to describe behavior. It turns out that esters are horrible. This solves the longtime mystery of why Redline consistently shows high lead content in used oil analyses.
Even more worrying, it turns out that this is a well-known phenomenon in engineering circles. Just goes to show how badly an internet community can misinterpret and distort. There are published papers on gear lubricants showing how GRP III and GRP II lubricants are more effective at most temperatures. The GRP IV lubes catch up and take over at the higher temps. GRP V is just not effective in comparison. It has a lot of other good properties, which is why Mobil mixes a tiny amount into M1 formulations, for example. But, in industry, GRP V is mostly used in food processing applications, and is otherwise the last choice!
On the lubricants, it turns out that there’s another property, one that isn’t measured/specified to the public, that determines an oil’s ability to maintain film strength in valve train, cylinder walls, and even in the bearings. The KV and HTHS numbers really only tell you how much oil pressure the engine can maintain. In the spots I mentioned, the forces are so high that there’s a completely different property to describe behavior. It turns out that esters are horrible. This solves the longtime mystery of why Redline consistently shows high lead content in used oil analyses.
Even more worrying, it turns out that this is a well-known phenomenon in engineering circles. Just goes to show how badly an internet community can misinterpret and distort. There are published papers on gear lubricants showing how GRP III and GRP II lubricants are more effective at most temperatures. The GRP IV lubes catch up and take over at the higher temps. GRP V is just not effective in comparison. It has a lot of other good properties, which is why Mobil mixes a tiny amount into M1 formulations, for example. But, in industry, GRP V is mostly used in food processing applications, and is otherwise the last choice!
Last edited by MatthewMiller; 02-19-2016 at 11:05 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Christi@n (02-20-2016)
02-20-2016, 09:05 AM
#54
Instructor
So I'll be trying the Motylgear 10w-40 Gearbox Lubricant soon. Christian, for what it's worth, I would think that the Motylgear would be easier to get in your part of the world.[/QUOTE]
Thanks!! Down here it's available also.
Thanks!! Down here it's available also.
02-20-2016, 11:01 AM
#55
Drifting
Thread Starter
I can get all the fluids i need here...redline amsoil, no problem.... We have a lot of official dealers in europe, even castrol is a typical brand here, supermarket easily purchaseble
Last edited by Christi@n; 02-20-2016 at 11:05 AM.
02-20-2016, 11:15 AM
#56
Le Mans Master
Yes. Sorry, I didn't realize my link wasn't working. Try this: http://motul.speclube.com/products/a...gear-10w40-1l/.
Last edited by MatthewMiller; 02-20-2016 at 11:17 AM.
09-03-2016, 10:46 AM
#57
AC Delco fuids
Since this seems to be the place for this, my local GM dealer sold me Syncromesh transmission fluid PN 10-4006 and said it replaces PN 1052931 Manual transmission fuid. Is this right? I read the later is for the Tremec 6 speed and not the ZF. I don't want to damage it with the wrong fluid. Only has 31K miles on it but is original fluid. Can't find any threads that compare the 2.
09-03-2016, 02:27 PM
#58
Drifting
Thread Starter
Never heard 10-4006, so I don't know.
I would Mail GM, to ask them what they know about it. Frequently at least here in Italy, guys that work in shop, are not very expert
I would Mail GM, to ask them what they know about it. Frequently at least here in Italy, guys that work in shop, are not very expert
09-05-2016, 03:26 PM
#60
Drifting
Thread Starter
I know instead that there are three fluids that work good on zf-s 6-40
AMSOIL SYNCHROMESH 5w30
CASTROL 10w60
REDLINE MTL 75w80 (actually i'm running with this, no problem at the moment, i would however swap to AMSOIL next fluid change, i'd like to feel differences beetween amsoil and redline)
IMO GM fluid should be ok.... blocker ring are always made of brass Fluid,
Last edited by Christi@n; 09-05-2016 at 03:28 PM.