which heads for 400??
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,009
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From: Springfield MO
which heads for 400??
I'm starting my 400 build up and I was curious to know who was running which head on larger cid engines. I have had good luck in the past with brodix track 1's on sb fords but I'm not sure of the valve sizes on the sb chevy heads. What about AFR's? I was thinking a 2.08 and 1.64 valve should get some flow in there. I'm keeping my 219 cam and super ram and I certainly want to use my tpis headers. The only thing that concerns me here is the plug angle and wire clearance. Thanks in advance.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Athens AL
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
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Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
I would go with the AFR 195 or 210, they say theyll work ok up to 400ci. They use a 220cc for bigger engines. You might lose some port velocity with that 220 though.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,009
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From: Springfield MO
Re: which heads for 400?? (vader86)
You might lose some port velocity with that 220 though.
[Modified by AS84, 5:09 PM 9/9/2002]
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
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From: St Marys PA
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
Corkyvette and I are gonna be doing my 406. We plan on building it the same as his. He is using the "old" 190 AFRs that were not CNCed from AFR. He is running 11.124 at 12x. He thinks that mine with the CNC and higher TC will yeild even better results.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 62,160
Likes: 1,733
From: Athens AL
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
You might lose some port velocity with that 220 though.
The "220" is that what it flows at say .500 lift?
The "220" is that what it flows at say .500 lift?
Pro
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 702
Likes: 1
From: the corner of walk and dont walk
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
I've built several carburated 400 based small blocks, and all of them have liked 200+ cc runners. The 406's really gained mid/upper horse power and saw no significant loss of torque above 3000rpm. If you make sure you have piston clearance, the 2.08 int. valve is the better choice. I've changed mine going from 2.02 to 2.05, then from 2.05 to 2.08, and the 406 definiately likes the bigger valves and bigger runners. Keep in mind, these were carburated, high compression, and running 6500+rpm. I do believe with the right cam shaft you should still be very successful with the bigger componants. :cheers:
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
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From: St Marys PA
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
Ski- do you happen to know what size valves are in them as well as an idea of what yours will flow at .500 lift?
260 190 @ .050
I can't speak from experience. I can only tell you what Corky is running and what he suggested we do with mine. Then again I already have the 190s and wanted to use them. He did not think that they would hinder the engine any. Like I said, his car rips and this is through an unported SR with solid cam and stock converter with 3.07 gears!
Cam is 242 int 242 exh .572 lift @ 0.050 TPIS has the cam in there catalog.
Like I said above, I can not garantee that bigger runner would not help or hurt you. Not enough experience with the engine yet. :D
I would try to reach Corky. He is a great guy and really knows his crap about these engines.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,117
Likes: 221
From: Ca.
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
I've heard of problems with some full lengh headers and the afr heads as far as clearance for plugs-and if they do clear the plugs then the wires are so close that they keep burning and shorting out.. Anyone out there with further info for him on this one???
I'm running trick flow 23 deg heads with hooker supercomp headers without any clearance problems-but next time I have the heads off I'm definatly getting them ported further-and wish I'd done that before....2.02 and 1.6 valves on them.
Next most significant question for you...do you have to deal with passing smog!?
I'm running trick flow 23 deg heads with hooker supercomp headers without any clearance problems-but next time I have the heads off I'm definatly getting them ported further-and wish I'd done that before....2.02 and 1.6 valves on them.
Next most significant question for you...do you have to deal with passing smog!?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 1
From: NewCastle IN. USA
Re: which heads for 400?? (drive it)
I just changed from AFR 195's to AFR 210 comp ported on my 406 this year.
dyno'd both.
with AFR195's: 350RWHP, 388RWTQ (this wasn't fully tuned so it could be slightly more)
with AFR210's: 416RWHP, 410RWTQ
I'm running a simular setup to cork's except I have a miniram/6spd and he has a superram/auto. the AFR 210's gained everywhere, even at 2500rpm.
I have the TPIS headers with the L98 plug angle in the heads, number 7 plug is very close and killed a plug wire (header wrap seems to have taken care of that) the rest were fine.
dyno'd both.
with AFR195's: 350RWHP, 388RWTQ (this wasn't fully tuned so it could be slightly more)
with AFR210's: 416RWHP, 410RWTQ
I'm running a simular setup to cork's except I have a miniram/6spd and he has a superram/auto. the AFR 210's gained everywhere, even at 2500rpm.
I have the TPIS headers with the L98 plug angle in the heads, number 7 plug is very close and killed a plug wire (header wrap seems to have taken care of that) the rest were fine.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,367
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From: Kentucky
Re: which heads for 400?? (ol,RJ)
I just did some reading on heads before reading your topic and it was suggested that 195s are ok, but are the smallest you want to go with. 200s with a good exhaust/intake relationship and a matched cam are probably going to be your best bet. Above 200 and you will start to lose port velocity like vader86 said. Something else to consider is the size of the combustion chamber. Each 4cc decrease ups compression by .40.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
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From: St Marys PA
Re: which heads for 400?? (castivers)
Corky and I both are gonna be running 59cc and 58cc heads respectfully. Corky is getting ~373 Hp and 402 Tq from his setup. He is still with the stock chip too!
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,009
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From: Springfield MO
Re: which heads for 400?? (ski_dwn_it)
I don't have to worry about emission's or anything like that. It sounds like the 200 or 210 may be the way to go. I'm not worried about the combustion chamber volume as I'll probably be milling the block or ordering custom forged pistons in order to reach 11:1. I am staying roller cam, I'll machine the block to accomodate the lifters....I'm sticking with the 219 cam....for obvious reasons :chevy
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 28
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From: Owensboro KY
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
I have to agree with sinestervette on the heads. Brodix now offers a set of aluminum heads that are custumed built to your specs. Starting at 1500$ which is not bad for a custom job and a new head to top that off.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
Re: which heads for 400?? (HuckFin40)
I'm up in the air about the 219 in the 400 block. I know there is machine work that is needed to accomidate the rollor cam. What are the costs associated and what are you guy's opinions.
Sorry if this is a little off the main topic, but I think it goes well in this conversation.
Thanks.
Sorry if this is a little off the main topic, but I think it goes well in this conversation.
Thanks.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,023
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From: Marietta, South Carolina, USA
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
There is no machine work that you have to do if you are going to use a roller cam in a 400 block but you will have to get some retro fit roller lifter
You cant use the 219 cam in the 400 block unles you get the right lifter because the 219 cam is made for block that are 87 and newer.
Block that are made after 87 are made different in the lifter vally because they had to be able to bolt the parts that hold the roller lifter in place. and the place where the lifter is in is taller too.
The 400 block are not made to have anything bolted to the lifter vally but you can get lifter that are hydraulic roller that are made for the old style block but the lifter cost a lot and hard to get that is why a lot of people goto a solid roller when they goto a engines over 400+ci.
I dont know but I would think that the 219 cam is a little to little for the 406 since it was made for the 350.
Jay
[Modified by MrJay, 10:52 AM 9/10/2002]
[Modified by MrJay, 10:53 AM 9/10/2002]
You cant use the 219 cam in the 400 block unles you get the right lifter because the 219 cam is made for block that are 87 and newer.
Block that are made after 87 are made different in the lifter vally because they had to be able to bolt the parts that hold the roller lifter in place. and the place where the lifter is in is taller too.
The 400 block are not made to have anything bolted to the lifter vally but you can get lifter that are hydraulic roller that are made for the old style block but the lifter cost a lot and hard to get that is why a lot of people goto a solid roller when they goto a engines over 400+ci.
I dont know but I would think that the 219 cam is a little to little for the 406 since it was made for the 350.
Jay
[Modified by MrJay, 10:52 AM 9/10/2002]
[Modified by MrJay, 10:53 AM 9/10/2002]
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, South Carolina, USA
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
A cam that is made to run from 2200-5500 in a 350 will change a smaller engine or a larger engine like this.
283-327 2400-5750
350-372 2200-5500
383-400 2000-5200
The power range of the 219 cam will drop from 200 to 300 RPM.
Jay
283-327 2400-5750
350-372 2200-5500
383-400 2000-5200
The power range of the 219 cam will drop from 200 to 300 RPM.
Jay
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,009
Likes: 1
From: Springfield MO
Re: which heads for 400?? (ski_dwn_it)
doesn't a solid cam require a little more maintance, such as adjusting rockers every now and again?I don't think the 219 cam is too small, the car is a street driver and gets taken on frequent road trips. I currently am running a small roller cam in a 422 sb ford that is consistant 9.60's. Its specs are .544 .560 and 232 and 242 at .050. I use a brodix head on it and am happy with the results they yielded over edlebrocks.
Sinister- I agree with the 2.08 intake diameter with a bigger cam, but If I keep the 219 I imagine the 2.02 and 1.60 should do the trick
Sinister- I agree with the 2.08 intake diameter with a bigger cam, but If I keep the 219 I imagine the 2.02 and 1.60 should do the trick
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, South Carolina, USA
Re: which heads for 400?? (AS84)
Yes you have more maintance with a solid roller because you have to just them more ofen then hydraulic roller and they make more noise.
Since you are going to use this car more as a driver then a street & strip then you are better off with a hydraulic cam and 219 would be a good cam for that you would have plenty low end TQ, but to use it you will have to get retro fit hydraulic roller lifter because you can use the ones that you are using now, and the other lifter are hard to get they are on back order I found a set and I wanted it because Im going to be building a 350 for my S10 and Im like you it is going to be more off a driver then a racer car, I found the lifter on ebay and I put in a bid for them but I was out bid, and now they have a bid on them higher then what they cost new that is becaus lifter like that are hard to find now new or used, last time I looked the lifter are up to $355 they cost new about $250.
Here is the link if you want to look at them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...856613869&rd=1
Im with you for a street car it is better to have hydraulic lifter but since you are going to 400+ci you are going to have to lifter that fit that block and the new style lifters will not do that.
Jay
PS why not so with Brodix heads or Dart heads?
Since you are going to use this car more as a driver then a street & strip then you are better off with a hydraulic cam and 219 would be a good cam for that you would have plenty low end TQ, but to use it you will have to get retro fit hydraulic roller lifter because you can use the ones that you are using now, and the other lifter are hard to get they are on back order I found a set and I wanted it because Im going to be building a 350 for my S10 and Im like you it is going to be more off a driver then a racer car, I found the lifter on ebay and I put in a bid for them but I was out bid, and now they have a bid on them higher then what they cost new that is becaus lifter like that are hard to find now new or used, last time I looked the lifter are up to $355 they cost new about $250.
Here is the link if you want to look at them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...856613869&rd=1
Im with you for a street car it is better to have hydraulic lifter but since you are going to 400+ci you are going to have to lifter that fit that block and the new style lifters will not do that.
Jay
PS why not so with Brodix heads or Dart heads?