Have you ever had bad gasoline?

My car is stored in garage under cover all winter. We get a lot of rain and humidity here. My '94 base coupe had been running like crud, popping and backfiring on occasion and loss of power, and pinging.

It's in top-notch mechanical condition, verified by work done and my my mechanic. So I've been perplexed as to what is going on. My mechanic suggested I probably got bad gasoline.

After researching the issue, I've learned that it's not all that uncommon to get bad gasoline. Most gasoline in the USA, even top-tier premium is inconsistent. E10 is only supposed to be 10% ethanol, but often it's mixed incorrectly and can be higher.

Ethanol is hydroscopic, absorbing moisture in the atmosphere and water in the gas. If the car sits too long without cycling through a tank of gas, phase separation occurs, dropping water to the tank bottom and with it octane loss. Add to that problem if the gas was bad to begin with.

Also when the tanker truck fills the station tanks it can mix all the sediment, water, etc from the bottom causing more inconsistency. You might be buying high octane but it may be a few octane points lower.

My understanding is the C4, LT1, high compression engine requires consistent, good quality, high octane gas to run at peak performance.

If octane is too low or gas is bad the computer will retard the heck out of the timing, loose HP, gas millage, and knock/ping especially upon load (up a hill).

This is exactly what my C4 did. But not with every tank full.

So ... I bought some Sta-bil to help condition/stabilize the gas and Lucas Octane booster to restore lost octane. (Both are alcohol-free, and are non-hydroscopic, fuel tester recommend). Then I topped if off with more top-tier (Chevron) premium. I took it for a ride.

Wholly smokes!!! Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. The car accelerated like a rocket, zero hesitation, ran smoothest I've ever felt it run. Throttle response was noticeably improved, and no more knocking or pinging.

In fact it's running better with those two additives than it did when it was running great before.

So.. this got me thinking ... Maybe our cars are not running at peak performance all the time (unbeknown to us) as they could because modern E10 gasoline is so inconsistent, and/or storage issues cause it to degrade.

I sincerely suggest you all try those two products and just see for yourself if your C4 performs better. Post your review here if you do.

Read this. It was part of my research:

http://fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

 

Was your car stored outside? Rain get in there?

Ran on gas almost a yr old, its stinks thats about it

If it was stored indoors you may have other issues
Wonder if you got a sticky injector. Any codes?

 

+ Always stored indoors, dry, heated.
+ Only time it gets wet is when it's washed.
+ No codes.

​​​​Its been gone though and mechanically sound. Injectors replaced, opti replaced, plugs, wires, etc, etc..Can't imagine what else it could be other than bad gas.

We do get a lot of rain here so maybe gasoline is more prone to having water in it.

 

Most states require that underground tanks be checked every few years and replaced when there is an indication of leakage. Look at the WA Dept of Agriculture inspection sticker on every pump; that is an indication that the state has checked the tanks and the pump for accurate delivery. Most stations will have a company testing rig come out and check the gas itself. Not only look for water or sediments, but for the octane level.

The underground tank filler fittings should have a way to keep water from entering the tank. Something like a o-ring type of seal and a twist-locking lid.

Sta-Bil is a good idea for long-term storage, but so is simply filling the tank before the car is stored. That will keep moisture from getting into the gas tank. With your car being stored inside, there should not be a problem with the gas just sitting in the tank. I have let my 02 sit for 4-5 months in my garage with no problems at all when I start driving it.

For the most part, stations don't usually have a problem with water in the gas. And many stations will have the 92 octane gas without as much ethanol as the 87 octane. They just don't advertise it. Stations that do have ethanol-free premium will charge an additional 20 cents or more per gallon for it.

 

If you can find gas with no ethanol it is a no brainer even if 50 cents more a gallon. Ethanol is one of the worst ideas ever pushed on us raising the price of food world wide and cutting USA exports to balance trade. The whole mess is for the benefit of the one company that owns the whole process from field to refinery to pump including transportation a lobbyist job of the century.

 

Not yet. In diesel I have. One tank gets me 650 miles and the new company I tried gets me 500+, switch back, 650 give or take, switch again, 500+. Conclusion: That place has bad diesel. Gas, hard to say I ever noticed but I go to busy stations.

Perhaps so but have you noticed that much of a difference between gas and E10? Give or take a few percent, I haven't noticed much. Supposedly E10 raises the resistance to detonation. I'm sure if I charted it for long term, I could tell.

If you top it off, how can you tell if the gas there was good or bad or what happened? Besides, SOTP dyno is notoriously inaccurate.

Or it could be that the tank was topped off by the new load was full of old fuel from summer and now they added some winter blend.

I've tried many of the octane boosters, snake oils and whatever in my youth when I wanted great things for cheap. None of them actually worked except stuff that thickens the motor oil to make it knock less. Once the oil was replaced with fresh oil, the noise came back. I am running 10.8:1 compression and the random times monitored the knocking. Numbers don't show noticeable difference.

I run my tank down to almost empty and running on fumes before I fill up so I know that if there is something wrong, it is with the last load. If I test snake oils, I run it to half tank and hook on a scanner to see if the knock count changes before and after with a few WOT runs

 

Its about money not environment, your car or anything else

This stuff is no good for components sure seems to make less power and mpg. If I use some "real" gas power difference is night and day. Pump gas is garbage.

 

My 4 door sedan highway cruiser went from 31 mpg with 3.1 v6 TO 27-28 same trip same car different fuel. It has never seen more than 28 since and the loss follows the btu available with the same conversion efficiency. Somehow it feels like either Haliburton or Cargill has their fingers in the whole process.

 

There are a lot of positive consumer reviews for specifically the Lucas Octane Booster and many have commented on the low quality gas for high compression performance cars.

Summit Racing website:

https://m.summitracing.com/parts/luc-10026-1/reviews

And on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B001OZL9OQ/ref=aw_cr_R3C4R0UBFGJY8S

Primary ingredient is: Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).

Just to be fair I did some modest research regarding studies of MMT.

Consistently it does demonstrate performance increase. There is conflicting data and the jury is still out whether MMT combustion is safe long term for humans, engine or catalytic converters. Mostly though it appears safe. The predominant combustion by-product manganese tetroxide is of low bioavailability.

You can download and read this PDF, keep in mind it's only one side of the story:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=13840220605927915496

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I don't know what constitutes real gas but my scanner didn't report any significant knocking on pump gas vs pure gas

 

For anyone that has to use gasoline with ethanol, just use Stabil or another fuel stabilizer & you will have NO problems during storage, I store my Corvette & my boat for 4-5 months every year with no issues using this product

 

"often mixed incorrectly" I have a problem with. In a previous life I worked for a company that made oil refinery equipment. I was in the control room one time when they were blending fuel to get 89 octane. NOBODY talks while they're doing the blending. They are super strict about the process and they have people out in the tank farm at the manual valves to take over if there is a problem. They take this VERY seriously.

 

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm

" We recently were called to consult for a fleet where a fairly large number of vehicles were being regularly fueled from a single tank and about one-half the vehicles were stored inside and the other half were stored outside.

After a night with a 30°F+ temperature drop, several of the vehicles stored outside developed problems with significant amounts of water found in the vehicle tanks.

After checking the storage tank and finding no measurable water, they looked for other possible causes including sabotage.

After looking at many possible causes this customer consulted with us and we were able to describe the Phase Separation through temperature change scenario and determine that this was the most likely cause of the problems.

Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an above ground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage.

When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning.

When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom.

If this happens and you try to start the engine you can have one or more of the following problems.

If your fuel tank pick-up tube is in the water layer, most likely the engine will fail to start. If the engine is running and suddenly draws water you can have damage from thermal shock or hydro-lock.

If the pick-up tube draws the Ethanol-Water mixture or just Ethanol you can have problems where the engine will operate in an extreme lean condition, which can cause significant damage or even catastrophic failure.

If the pick-up tube draws the gasoline, it will operate very poorly due to lower octane that is the result of no longer having the Ethanol in the fuel"

Bell Performance Website:

"Gasoline formulators vary the composition of gas in the hot summer months and the colder winter months, in order to meet emissions and air quality standards.

This “reformulated” gas is blended in such a way that it has a lower vapor pressure in the summer and a high vapor pressure in the winter blends.

This means the summer gas evaporates less and thus contributes less to the “evaporative emissions” which represent million of gallons of gasoline per year evaporated in the air.

Winter gas is more volatile and evaporates more quickly, so it is ideal for it is used in the colder air of winter."

US Energy Information Administration Website:

"The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure gasoline. The impact of fuel ethanol on vehicle fuel economy varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol.

The energy content of denaturant is about equal to the energy content of pure gasoline. In general, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by about 3% when using E10 relative to gasoline that does not contain fuel ethanol"

https://www.shipinsight.com/explaining-on-board-blending-of-fuels/

"The blending of products and fuel components into making fuel oil is a fundamental part of the energy business. Gases such as butane and propane are also blended. Ships are often required to blend different cargoes and this has been a regular activity on many trades.

There are a number of problems that can arise from blending a cargo and these can include:

* Final blend product does not meet specification.
* Inadequate mixing of the various products.
* Complications when blend components are incompatible.
* Individual blend components are unstable and result in a precipitation of sediment.
* Not using proper representative samples - thus incorrect test blend results recorded.
* Calculation errors in product quantities resulting in incorrect blends.
* Final non-linear blends produced with inconsistent flash points, colour and viscosity.
* Tank cleaning difficulties following a blending operation.
* Individual components are contaminated."

 

Guys the issue with E10 gasoline are blown way out of proportion. The cold hard facts are that E10 gasoline can hold considerably more water in suspension before there is phase seperation. Phase seperation is bad, but straight gasoline can only absorb 150 PPM of water before the water seperates out and sits at the bottom of the tank. E10 gasoline can absorb 7000 PPM of water before the seperation occurs and then the water and ethanol will sit at the bottom of the tank. The seperated water/water ethanol sitting at the bottom of your fuel tank is what causes your running issues. If you keep the water out of your fuel tank (Water being absorbed from the air not really a concern it is almost impossible for this to occur) you will not have any issues. E10 gasoline gets blamed for all kinds of problems but it is just a scapegoat for people to blame.

This is a good but old article on Ethanol fuel, written 20 years ago but the myths still persist. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...s/waterphs.pdf

 

I just recently bought a 1990 C4, that I am pretty sure had old gas in it. I just had lots of maintenance done, but little improvement in the rough engine ride. I did burn off most of the old gas, put in some premium and did put some Lucas Additive in it. I did see a little more improvement. Going to drive the car a little more..maybe make it my daily driver for a week or weather permitting, and continue adding a good additive for Octane booting as well as Fuel Injection cleaning.
Thanks again for your info & link.

 

If you need octane boosters, I'd really question why. It should run on premium gas without. As to fuel injection cleaning, I wouldn't waste money on them if they are Multec injectors. They won't like the ethanol and no amount of snake oil cleaner you put in will cure that. Ethanol eats away at the windings and fuel with ethanol is used to cool the coils.





If you don't have Multec injectors, send here HERE for a real cleaning, I have a 3 year scheduled cleaning and testing. The results will show you what was and what is as opposed to the nickle and dime snake oils that let you imagine what could be.

 

I'll bite. How do I do that? Only thing I can think of is to run a filter with a water separator.

 

Even if the additives are alcohol free? And I have to check if it's Multec or Bosch

 

Alcohol is known to have a bad effect on the windings of the coils since the fuel runs through the coils for a cooling effect. So, that much is an issue. As for the additives, who knows what effect it will have on the coil insulation? I have never been a big fan of additives. IMO, the reason they sell it is because there are enough suckers to pay for the "cheap insurance" that they can make money by stating the "testimonials" and only the positive ones. Ever had a product where there are no disgruntled customers? I haven't. What are the testimonials based off? Some guy with little to no scientific background doing a SOTP test? There is this thing called the "Placebo Effect". Over the years I have seen many a person buy a $200 part, feel a huge gain but the track doesn't show it or it shows a negative gain. "Up to 20HP" means anything from a negative gain to a positive of 20.

If they are Multec, there isn't a point to servicing them. There will be ethanol in the fuel. That much is fact unless you have a way of getting only pure gas. If it is Multec, I put them in the trash and get some rebuilt Bosch III injectors. When I send them out in 3 years I do get some gunk off it based on the "before" vs "after" flow test. Before tends to be over the board and lower and after tends to be higher and more importantly, even.

Do the math. For what I drive, in 3 years I can KNOW that my injectors are flowing what they should or spend the same, if not more money on snake oils and GUESS that they should be ok because my SOTP dyno said so. Injector failures don't occur overnight usually. It goes gradually so you don't notice it until it is FUBAR or the coil shorts out. When they are sent out for cleaning and testing, the manifold is off and it is a good time to clean it and the TB and the IAC housing.

 

Sta-Bil Storage, and Lucas Octane Booster are both alcohol free. There is no additives that will reverse E10 phase separation, or keep water out, or change what is contaminated or poorly mixed. Sta-Bil can only slow down processes. The Lucas Octane booster will only add to the mix, hopefully bringing the Octane back where it should be and/or create a better fuel burn with bad Gasoline.

The key is not to use it all the time but use consistent, good gas. But sometimes we get unlucky.

The issus with bad Gasoline is far greater than just Ethanol. You can't have so many anecdotal reports from car owners having performance issues and then the issue resolves when that tank of gas is replaced with different tank of gas. Something is definitely going on with gas quality consistency. It can be at the refinery, the mixing, at the pump tankers, or owner storage conditions.

All I know is my injectors are all new, plugs, wires, all hoses and lines inspeced, no codes, new Opti, etc, etc.. car gone over with a fine tooth comb and no issues. All of a sudden after getting gas at a different station my car starts pinging. Add The octane booster and Sta-Bil and it goes away, idles smooth and acellerates like a rocket. Smells like bad gas to me.

My understanding is the fuel line in the tank is not directly on the bottom. So you're always "blending in" the last bit of previous gas (or water/ethanol) at the bottom of your tank at each fill up.