Timing issue with EST connected
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Timing issue with EST connected
Hi all
I have been working through a couple of issues with my 84 Cross Fire and I now have a situation where the car will not drive with the EST connected. Please bare with me and I'll try and make this story short and full of facts.
Not long ago the car developed an erratic idle. The idle would start very hi when cold (probably 1400rpm) then settle around 800rpm when warm. However sometimes whilst sitting at the light the car would just idle down to zero and stop. This would also often happen when decelerating when coming of a freeway or after hard acceleration.
As with any old car I have ever bought I hatched a plan to replace plugs, leads, distributor cap, rotor plug, etc. When I looked into sourcing there parts I decided that I would replace the complete distributor so that I was starting from a good base with a new coil and timing module. The distributor I chose was a Davis Unified Ignition GM Computer Controlled Distributor DUI-12600RD. Anyway I installed it the other night, disconnected the EST and set the timing to 12 Deg advance. I plugged the EST back in and observed the change with the timing light; the timing advanced about 4 or 5 degrees at idle so everything looked good. I set off for a test drive and only got halfway around the block when the car started backfiring through the intake and missing badly. The car stalled repeatedly and didn't have enough power to let the clutch out at any revs. I disconnected the EST and the car returned to normal so I drove it back home. I then set the timing back to the factory setting of 6 Deg but as soon as I plugged the EST back in and restarted the car the problems started again.
The original distributor had been working apart from the rough idle: I didn't necessarily think that the new distributor would fix the idle but I thought it would be prudent to replace these parts in any case. The only code I have is 42 which should be expected.
Considering that the car runs quite well with the EST open circuit, there should be no issue with the coil or pickup coil and at least some of the modules functions are working correctly.
Has anyone here had this issue before? I found an old thread https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/1740187-erratic-timing-and-idle-only-with-est-connected.html where apparently the fix is to file the points off the pickup coil (I really don't want to do that).
I thought that a backfire in the intake indicated that the engine is retarded, Could the knock sensor be retarding the engine enough to cause this? I am really clutching at straws now.
Thanks in advance Greg
I have been working through a couple of issues with my 84 Cross Fire and I now have a situation where the car will not drive with the EST connected. Please bare with me and I'll try and make this story short and full of facts.
Not long ago the car developed an erratic idle. The idle would start very hi when cold (probably 1400rpm) then settle around 800rpm when warm. However sometimes whilst sitting at the light the car would just idle down to zero and stop. This would also often happen when decelerating when coming of a freeway or after hard acceleration.
As with any old car I have ever bought I hatched a plan to replace plugs, leads, distributor cap, rotor plug, etc. When I looked into sourcing there parts I decided that I would replace the complete distributor so that I was starting from a good base with a new coil and timing module. The distributor I chose was a Davis Unified Ignition GM Computer Controlled Distributor DUI-12600RD. Anyway I installed it the other night, disconnected the EST and set the timing to 12 Deg advance. I plugged the EST back in and observed the change with the timing light; the timing advanced about 4 or 5 degrees at idle so everything looked good. I set off for a test drive and only got halfway around the block when the car started backfiring through the intake and missing badly. The car stalled repeatedly and didn't have enough power to let the clutch out at any revs. I disconnected the EST and the car returned to normal so I drove it back home. I then set the timing back to the factory setting of 6 Deg but as soon as I plugged the EST back in and restarted the car the problems started again.
The original distributor had been working apart from the rough idle: I didn't necessarily think that the new distributor would fix the idle but I thought it would be prudent to replace these parts in any case. The only code I have is 42 which should be expected.
Considering that the car runs quite well with the EST open circuit, there should be no issue with the coil or pickup coil and at least some of the modules functions are working correctly.
Has anyone here had this issue before? I found an old thread https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/1740187-erratic-timing-and-idle-only-with-est-connected.html where apparently the fix is to file the points off the pickup coil (I really don't want to do that).
I thought that a backfire in the intake indicated that the engine is retarded, Could the knock sensor be retarding the engine enough to cause this? I am really clutching at straws now.
Thanks in advance Greg
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,475
Likes: 565
From: Clearwater Florida
….. Your harmonic balancer's outer ring may have slipped due to degradation of the rubber that bonds it to the hub … you need to verify TDC or replace the balancer … beyond that , I'd take a good look at all electrical connections between the distributor and the ESC module …..
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
….. Your harmonic balancer's outer ring may have slipped due to degradation of the rubber that bonds it to the hub … you need to verify TDC or replace the balancer … beyond that , I'd take a good look at all electrical connections between the distributor and the ESC module …..
The harmonic balancer has crossed my mind. I’ll try and confirm TDC tomorrow (it’s night time here). I’m not sure how I will do that exactly because I don’t think I will be able to get my dial indicator in a position to touch the top of the piston, maybe I can measure it with a screwdriver or something. The problem didn’t happen with the old distributor and the rotor is pointing to where I think number one should be so it’s probably ok, but it doesn’t hurt to check.
im going to have a look at the wiring tomorrow as well. I resemtly had a set of headers fitted and when I got the car back there was an orange (possibly brown possibly pink) wire hanging down near the starter motor. The wire was not there before and there were bare strands like it had been pulled out of somewhere, but do you think I can find where? All the correct wires are on the starter motor and the knock sensor wire is in place. The car was running ok but this wire troubles me. This car was RHD converted in the nineties so the wiring is not always as per the FSM so that’s an added challenge.
The other thing I have noticed is that since I found that wire disconnected the car nearly stalls when I plug the 10K resistor into the ALDL connector to run winALDL. It’s almost like that wire provides power to the ECM and that it still kind of works without it but any electrical load drags it down.
I’m sorry to leak out additional information but it could be a red herring or otherwise unrelated or it could be important. One thinks for sure it does trouble me.
Last edited by GregMartin; Nov 16, 2018 at 08:44 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
ok I did a bit of work on the car today so here is an update:
I payed more attention to the backfires and to my surprise there were both intake and exhaust backfires and the timing was jumping all over the place.
The first thing I did was check that the harmonic balancer was really at TDC and it was but I think C409 was on the money because the behavior is like the timing is way way out.
The second thing I did was swap in the old module but there was no change.
So I pulled the new distributor out and put the old one back in. I swapped all the new stuff, module, coil, cap, rotor button onto the old distributor and the car seamed good. I went for a test drive and it went like stink (an Australian-ism for it was fast).
So hear is the interesting thing. When I put the new distributor in originally it looked like it located in a slightly different spot but I wasn’t sure and in the end I decided that I was just second guessing myself. In hindsight I reckon that I my have been one tooth out on the spline. I was sure this wasn’t the case because I could set the timing and the car ran with no advance. If I was one tooth out the Hall effect sensor would have been about 27 degrees out. In the days of point I guess the engine wouldn’t have run but there may have been enough discharge to fire a sparkplug with an HEI distributor.
anyway when I get a chance I’ll put the new distributor back in and make sure it’s on the correct spine and see if the fixes the issue.
I payed more attention to the backfires and to my surprise there were both intake and exhaust backfires and the timing was jumping all over the place.
The first thing I did was check that the harmonic balancer was really at TDC and it was but I think C409 was on the money because the behavior is like the timing is way way out.
The second thing I did was swap in the old module but there was no change.
So I pulled the new distributor out and put the old one back in. I swapped all the new stuff, module, coil, cap, rotor button onto the old distributor and the car seamed good. I went for a test drive and it went like stink (an Australian-ism for it was fast).
So hear is the interesting thing. When I put the new distributor in originally it looked like it located in a slightly different spot but I wasn’t sure and in the end I decided that I was just second guessing myself. In hindsight I reckon that I my have been one tooth out on the spline. I was sure this wasn’t the case because I could set the timing and the car ran with no advance. If I was one tooth out the Hall effect sensor would have been about 27 degrees out. In the days of point I guess the engine wouldn’t have run but there may have been enough discharge to fire a sparkplug with an HEI distributor.
anyway when I get a chance I’ll put the new distributor back in and make sure it’s on the correct spine and see if the fixes the issue.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 1,487
From: New Jersey
Iirc with hei you can't be one 1 tooth out. Just advance or retard until it comes to spec. 1 may be in the wrong position but it should have no bearing on how it runs. Very interesting. How does the timing sit now?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
So are you saying you can or you can’t be a tooth out on an HEI distributor? With points you can see what’s going on and set the dwell angle so if you ran out of adjustment I guess you’d know there was a problem. I read an old post where someone had this problem and they ended up filling down part of the Hall effect pickup to fix it. Can’t help but wonder whether It was just installed wrong.
Last edited by GregMartin; Nov 17, 2018 at 06:48 PM.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 1,487
From: New Jersey
At the moment the timing is set at 8 Deg BTDC and the car runs perfectly (probably the best it has run since I’ve owned it). When I pick up the throttle the engine advances, no sign of backfires and on the road test it pulled quite hard. I don’t think I’ll have time today to test the new distributor again so it’s a job for next week.
So are you saying you can or you can’t be a tooth out on an HEI distributor? With points you can see what’s going on and set the dwell angle so if you ran out of adjustment I guess you’d know there was a problem. I read an old post where someone had this problem and they ended up filling down part of the Hall effect pickup to fix it. Can’t help but wonder whether It was just installed wrong.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Actually the more I think about it the more I think I’m second guessing myself. Surly it shouldn’t matter at what position the distributor is installed provided that one is set to fire around TDC. Now I’m thinking that the Hall effect pickup is either located at the wrong angle on the shaft or it’s generating electrical noise which is mucking up the reference pulse on the ECM. Maybe the guy who filed the pickup was right after all.
Last edited by GregMartin; Nov 17, 2018 at 07:33 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Thanks again I just realized this see my last post (what an idiot haha). It brings me back to either electrical noise or the pickups being incorrectly located which I would think is unlikely.
Last edited by GregMartin; Nov 17, 2018 at 07:34 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
I had time to have a look at the DUI distributor today. It looks like the points of the pickup coil line up about 10 Deg before the rotor lines up with plug lead terminal. I’m not sure how that compares to the factory distributor because it’s installed on the car and it’s a bit difficult to see. Does anyone know if the orientation of the pickup coil is correct? The other thing I noticed was that the bar that the rotor button bolts to was bent. I know I didn’t do it and wonder if that was effecting it.
Sorry to keep posting on my own thread but I figure more info equals better advice.
Sorry to keep posting on my own thread but I figure more info equals better advice.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
It’s interesting that with that distributor the car ran very smoothly when the EST was disconnected. You would think that poor alignment of the rotor would be a problem at any amount of advance. Also I’m quite disappointed that the rotor mounting bar is bent on a new distributor. I did a bit of homework and the DUI seemed to be well regarded. I think this one may have been dropped.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,847
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From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Interesting but frustrating.
It’s interesting that with that distributor the car ran very smoothly when the EST was disconnected. You would think that poor alignment of the rotor would be a problem at any amount of advance. Also I’m quite disappointed that the rotor mounting bar is bent on a new distributor. I did a bit of homework and the DUI seemed to be well regarded. I think this one may have been dropped.
I would suspect that the better aftermarket modules have something similar.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
The factory Delco distributor module has a built in electronic advance curve that emulates the centrifugal advance curves in the older non-computer distributors. The curve operates if the computer fails or if the EST wire is disconnected. This electrical timing curve is in there to provide decent engine driveability until the customer can get the car to the dealership for repair.
I would suspect that the better aftermarket modules have something similar.
I would suspect that the better aftermarket modules have something similar.
I guess I wasn’t questioning the fact that the car ran with the EST disconnected but what is wrong with this Davis distributor.
Currently the Delco distributor is back in the car but I have fitted all the Davis bits to it i.e. Dyna Mod module, DUI coil, DUI cap and DUI rotor button. The car is running quite nicely at the moment but considering that I bough a new distributor it would be nice to install it.
The only thing I can find wrong with the new distributor is the fact that the bar that the rotor button bolts to is bent. Which BTW is both amazing and disappointing.
Attached is a photo.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,402
Likes: 287
From: Brisbane Australia
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Quick update
I have spoken with the guys at Performance Distributors and they are going to sent out a new distributor shaft. I’ll post with results when it arrives.
Oh and happy Thanks Giving to all you Americans out there (I that’s what you say).
I have spoken with the guys at Performance Distributors and they are going to sent out a new distributor shaft. I’ll post with results when it arrives.
Oh and happy Thanks Giving to all you Americans out there (I that’s what you say).