Torque Converter will not lock up..
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
Torque Converter will not lock up..
"96 4L60E
So.. When my TCC was slipping in and out of lock up i naturally went to a tranny shop, well 3 tranny shops, to try and diagnose the problem. I went to a very well known performance shop, Pacific Coast Transmission, a mom and pop place around the corner that has been in business for 25+ years and finally another local tranny shop I pass on my way home from work that stays pretty busy (5 bays, about 6 or 7 cars being done at any given time.
They all told me basically the same thing, which was the problem could be the valve bore for the TCC in the valvebody, could be a pressure or pump issue or the torque converter itself.. That in order to properly diagnose the problem we would need to R&R and etc.. and ultimately id be doing a full rebuild when said and done.. etc etc.
So I started buying parts and reading about different mods for the 4l60. I accumulated all the hardened and "upgraded" parts from sonnax and transgo that I wanted to use and I ordered a torque converter from summit, (B&M 2000 stall lockup converter)
I ended up going with the last shop because PCC wanted too much money, im not building a race car nor do I want to spend more than I paid for the car in the first place, Mom and Pop were not comfy installing the upgraded valves and shift kits and whatnot. So I go with the volume guy who said no problem we can follow instructions and had a reasonable price. I spent alot of time there everyday with the guys there ensuring the separator plate and valve body was drilled correctly and in the right places and that the instructions were being followed etc.. Everything went smooth and only took 3 days. Get the car off the lift and it shifts HARD and quick and overall I like it.
Get on the freeway, no lockup. this car has a 2.59 so trying to drive on the freeway the tranny temp was high from the high stall tc/no lock up.
So I take it back and the owner of the shop (who didnt do any work btw lol) and he agrees the lockup isnt happening takes the car back and says hey, dont worry about it. "We will hook it up to the scanner and drive it around etc.. We will figure it out Sir, no problem." And I hope so, but am worried about it.
Anyone ever experience this issue before? Anyone have any idea what could be happening here? Its a little frustrating because I did a whole rebuild complete with TC and basically have the same type of issue I started with.
Holiday weekend, next day the shop is open is tuesday..
So.. When my TCC was slipping in and out of lock up i naturally went to a tranny shop, well 3 tranny shops, to try and diagnose the problem. I went to a very well known performance shop, Pacific Coast Transmission, a mom and pop place around the corner that has been in business for 25+ years and finally another local tranny shop I pass on my way home from work that stays pretty busy (5 bays, about 6 or 7 cars being done at any given time.
They all told me basically the same thing, which was the problem could be the valve bore for the TCC in the valvebody, could be a pressure or pump issue or the torque converter itself.. That in order to properly diagnose the problem we would need to R&R and etc.. and ultimately id be doing a full rebuild when said and done.. etc etc.
So I started buying parts and reading about different mods for the 4l60. I accumulated all the hardened and "upgraded" parts from sonnax and transgo that I wanted to use and I ordered a torque converter from summit, (B&M 2000 stall lockup converter)
I ended up going with the last shop because PCC wanted too much money, im not building a race car nor do I want to spend more than I paid for the car in the first place, Mom and Pop were not comfy installing the upgraded valves and shift kits and whatnot. So I go with the volume guy who said no problem we can follow instructions and had a reasonable price. I spent alot of time there everyday with the guys there ensuring the separator plate and valve body was drilled correctly and in the right places and that the instructions were being followed etc.. Everything went smooth and only took 3 days. Get the car off the lift and it shifts HARD and quick and overall I like it.
Get on the freeway, no lockup. this car has a 2.59 so trying to drive on the freeway the tranny temp was high from the high stall tc/no lock up.
So I take it back and the owner of the shop (who didnt do any work btw lol) and he agrees the lockup isnt happening takes the car back and says hey, dont worry about it. "We will hook it up to the scanner and drive it around etc.. We will figure it out Sir, no problem." And I hope so, but am worried about it.
Anyone ever experience this issue before? Anyone have any idea what could be happening here? Its a little frustrating because I did a whole rebuild complete with TC and basically have the same type of issue I started with.
Holiday weekend, next day the shop is open is tuesday..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,677
Likes: 812
From: Saskatoon Sask.
The fact you have the same problem you started with after spending several hundreds of dollars leads me to believe that none of these places know what they are doing or they do know and just decided to take you to the cleaners. Electrical should ALWAYS be confirmed before tearing the box apart. Could be as simple as a loose or faulty brake switch.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,677
Likes: 812
From: Saskatoon Sask.
It is a 96 you two. Not the same OBD port as early cars. The TCC solenoid apply wire does not exist in the ALDL port.
96 is first year of PWM torque converter. If it was setting P1870 (OP didn't say) this is a common 96-ish problem. Several causes, all have cures from the aftermarket. That the shop the OP went with used customer-supplied parts, and allowed the owner to be involved, is surprising. Almost all builders have recipes for the transmissions they work on of preferred parts and pieces. They know what works for them for their customers. And as soon as an owner that is paying me to do the work (presumably because they can't) begins to check me, or tell me what to do, I'm no longer interested. The OP indicates that the shop is going to rectify the problem. That's good. Hopefully they can.
It's a 96. If it WAS setting P1870, it needed to come out. What needs to be done after it is out varies, but he wasn't taken to the cleaners. And, being 23+ years old, its probably been out and apart before. It's always so fun and easy to work on something others have been in and possibly messed-up before you get to do it and try to figure out what they did before you.
96 is first year of PWM torque converter. If it was setting P1870 (OP didn't say) this is a common 96-ish problem. Several causes, all have cures from the aftermarket. That the shop the OP went with used customer-supplied parts, and allowed the owner to be involved, is surprising. Almost all builders have recipes for the transmissions they work on of preferred parts and pieces. They know what works for them for their customers. And as soon as an owner that is paying me to do the work (presumably because they can't) begins to check me, or tell me what to do, I'm no longer interested. The OP indicates that the shop is going to rectify the problem. That's good. Hopefully they can.
It's a 96. If it WAS setting P1870, it needed to come out. What needs to be done after it is out varies, but he wasn't taken to the cleaners. And, being 23+ years old, its probably been out and apart before. It's always so fun and easy to work on something others have been in and possibly messed-up before you get to do it and try to figure out what they did before you.
I believe I said all electrical needs to be checked first. I could be wrong. And please elaborate on the reasoning behind taking the entire tranny out to correct an 1870 in the valve body. And if you feel that this shop didn't "take liberty with the billing" and knew what they were doing, then why is he at square one after all this work?
Last edited by arbee; May 27, 2019 at 12:47 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,700
Likes: 1,667
From: moraga ca
I believe I said all electrical needs to be checked first. I could be wrong. And please elaborate on the reasoning behind taking the entire tranny out to correct an 1870 in the valve body. And if you feel that this shop didn't "take liberty with the billing" and knew what they were doing, then why is he at square one after all this work?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
It is a 96 you two. Not the same OBD port as early cars. The TCC solenoid apply wire does not exist in the ALDL port.
96 is first year of PWM torque converter. If it was setting P1870 (OP didn't say) this is a common 96-ish problem. Several causes, all have cures from the aftermarket. That the shop the OP went with used customer-supplied parts, and allowed the owner to be involved, is surprising. Almost all builders have recipes for the transmissions they work on of preferred parts and pieces. They know what works for them for their customers. And as soon as an owner that is paying me to do the work (presumably because they can't) begins to check me, or tell me what to do, I'm no longer interested. The OP indicates that the shop is going to rectify the problem. That's good. Hopefully they can.
It's a 96. If it WAS setting P1870, it needed to come out. What needs to be done after it is out varies, but he wasn't taken to the cleaners. And, being 23+ years old, its probably been out and apart before. It's always so fun and easy to work on something others have been in and possibly messed-up before you get to do it and try to figure out what they did before you.
96 is first year of PWM torque converter. If it was setting P1870 (OP didn't say) this is a common 96-ish problem. Several causes, all have cures from the aftermarket. That the shop the OP went with used customer-supplied parts, and allowed the owner to be involved, is surprising. Almost all builders have recipes for the transmissions they work on of preferred parts and pieces. They know what works for them for their customers. And as soon as an owner that is paying me to do the work (presumably because they can't) begins to check me, or tell me what to do, I'm no longer interested. The OP indicates that the shop is going to rectify the problem. That's good. Hopefully they can.
It's a 96. If it WAS setting P1870, it needed to come out. What needs to be done after it is out varies, but he wasn't taken to the cleaners. And, being 23+ years old, its probably been out and apart before. It's always so fun and easy to work on something others have been in and possibly messed-up before you get to do it and try to figure out what they did before you.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
The fact you have the same problem you started with after spending several hundreds of dollars leads me to believe that none of these places know what they are doing or they do know and just decided to take you to the cleaners. Electrical should ALWAYS be confirmed before tearing the box apart. Could be as simple as a loose or faulty brake switch.I wanted to put the transgo shift kit in and I dont think it would have been wise to put a shift kit in an old tired tranny. Did I want to spend on the rebuild? hell no. But it beats paying for a R&R, getting the shift kit in, and need a rebuild 2 months later. I figured it was a good investment/idea to get everything done all at once. New frictions and steels, billet pinless accumulators, super hold servo and some other small improvements.
What I didnt expect was to be at square 1 after a full rebuild. But the shop owner seems pretty un-bothered and confident his shop can get it right, so at least there is that.
Ill be going over there tomorrow to see whats up.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,677
Likes: 812
From: Saskatoon Sask.
I would agree here, but I planned to do the rebuild anyway, the downshifts were really sloppy and the tranny actually appeared to be stock, at least the TC was.
I wanted to put the transgo shift kit in and I dont think it would have been wise to put a shift kit in an old tired tranny. Did I want to spend on the rebuild? hell no. But it beats paying for a R&R, getting the shift kit in, and need a rebuild 2 months later. I figured it was a good investment/idea to get everything done all at once. New frictions and steels, billet pinless accumulators, super hold servo and some other small improvements.
What I didnt expect was to be at square 1 after a full rebuild. But the shop owner seems pretty un-bothered and confident his shop can get it right, so at least there is that.
Ill be going over there tomorrow to see whats up.
I wanted to put the transgo shift kit in and I dont think it would have been wise to put a shift kit in an old tired tranny. Did I want to spend on the rebuild? hell no. But it beats paying for a R&R, getting the shift kit in, and need a rebuild 2 months later. I figured it was a good investment/idea to get everything done all at once. New frictions and steels, billet pinless accumulators, super hold servo and some other small improvements.
What I didnt expect was to be at square 1 after a full rebuild. But the shop owner seems pretty un-bothered and confident his shop can get it right, so at least there is that.
Ill be going over there tomorrow to see whats up.
I genuinely wish you good luck with this dilemma but after several decades of dealing with people and their BS, the pessimist in me thinks that this shop will have a multitude of reasons why the TC is not locking, one of them being "the parts you supplied are not compatible". Hope I am wrong for your sake.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,192
Likes: 750
From: near the thumb in the mitten
I get you don't like diagnosis is incomplete
You didn't list code l guessing p074? TCC vs 1870 undefined gear ratio.
Scanner may show TCC commanded on. Sensors showing input speed sensor doesn't match tach signal indicating there's a problem. Without taking it apart is TCC solenoid broken. Converter failure. Pump, turbine seals, valve body problem. Unfortunately not every problem has a clear answer. A 96 4l60e should not require alot of updates...sunshell. Shift kit can offer some benefits however the PCM still controls transmission functions. The transmission shop(s) have been burned on " Oh just needs a solenoid" that didn't fix it . they want to be sure so estimate is accurate. You could try replacing solenoid yourself.
You didn't list code l guessing p074? TCC vs 1870 undefined gear ratio.
Scanner may show TCC commanded on. Sensors showing input speed sensor doesn't match tach signal indicating there's a problem. Without taking it apart is TCC solenoid broken. Converter failure. Pump, turbine seals, valve body problem. Unfortunately not every problem has a clear answer. A 96 4l60e should not require alot of updates...sunshell. Shift kit can offer some benefits however the PCM still controls transmission functions. The transmission shop(s) have been burned on " Oh just needs a solenoid" that didn't fix it . they want to be sure so estimate is accurate. You could try replacing solenoid yourself.
Last edited by Kevova; May 27, 2019 at 08:22 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 16,838
Likes: 341
From: Database Error Indiana
I can not diagnose the problem but I can give you a work around. The converter solenoid needs to be grounded to lock up. The fat round connection on the trans has a tan/black stripe wire that carries the ground from the control module. (check your wiring diagram to be sure but tan/black is typical.) Run a ground through a toggle switch to the TC ground and you can lock it at will. The trans guy can verify this.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
I get you don't like diagnosis is incomplete
You didn't list code l guessing p074? TCC vs 1870 undefined gear ratio.
Scanner may show TCC commanded on. Sensors showing input speed sensor doesn't match tach signal indicating there's a problem. Without taking it apart is TCC solenoid broken. Converter failure. Pump, turbine seals, valve body problem. Unfortunately not every problem has a clear answer. A 96 4l60e should not require alot of updates...sunshell. Shift kit can offer some benefits however the PCM still controls transmission functions. The transmission shop(s) have been burned on " Oh just needs a solenoid" that didn't fix it . they want to be sure so estimate is accurate. You could try replacing solenoid yourself.
You didn't list code l guessing p074? TCC vs 1870 undefined gear ratio.
Scanner may show TCC commanded on. Sensors showing input speed sensor doesn't match tach signal indicating there's a problem. Without taking it apart is TCC solenoid broken. Converter failure. Pump, turbine seals, valve body problem. Unfortunately not every problem has a clear answer. A 96 4l60e should not require alot of updates...sunshell. Shift kit can offer some benefits however the PCM still controls transmission functions. The transmission shop(s) have been burned on " Oh just needs a solenoid" that didn't fix it . they want to be sure so estimate is accurate. You could try replacing solenoid yourself.
Headed over to the shop in a few.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
Unfortunately things did not get better today. His scanner tool is not reading 1996 ODBII. We need to see if the lockup signal is being sent from the ecm or not. I have a few scanners but im not sure mine will work either. Of course we can see pending and stored dtc codes but missing other live sensor data.
At this point I need to see if the signal is being sent and other live data like misfires. I have been reading up and the flow charts for some lockup converters says that there has to be a bunch of "yes" responses for the torque converter to lock up.. like speed over __, TPS at >____%, etc, it seems like some sensors says "yes" then "no" then "yes" which was causing my original/initial symptom.
Either way, the only way forward is to access this data while driving or the car raised up. I can see if the signal is being sent, if the TC locks or not and any other data that seems to correlate to the no lock up condition...
Which should be fun.. trying to find a shop or "someone" that has like a Tech II or any other scanner that would/could work with 1996 ODBII.
The shop owner is ready to take it to his "friend" who does auto electrical work. Ill pass on that and pick my car up in the morning, something about that proposition rubs me wrong. I like to do my own stuff, but tranny work on your back in the garage sucks.
At this point I need to see if the signal is being sent and other live data like misfires. I have been reading up and the flow charts for some lockup converters says that there has to be a bunch of "yes" responses for the torque converter to lock up.. like speed over __, TPS at >____%, etc, it seems like some sensors says "yes" then "no" then "yes" which was causing my original/initial symptom.
Either way, the only way forward is to access this data while driving or the car raised up. I can see if the signal is being sent, if the TC locks or not and any other data that seems to correlate to the no lock up condition...
Which should be fun.. trying to find a shop or "someone" that has like a Tech II or any other scanner that would/could work with 1996 ODBII.
The shop owner is ready to take it to his "friend" who does auto electrical work. Ill pass on that and pick my car up in the morning, something about that proposition rubs me wrong. I like to do my own stuff, but tranny work on your back in the garage sucks.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,394
Likes: 2,741
Unfortunately things did not get better today. His scanner tool is not reading 1996 ODBII. We need to see if the lockup signal is being sent from the ecm or not. I have a few scanners but im not sure mine will work either. Of course we can see pending and stored dtc codes but missing other live sensor data.
At this point I need to see if the signal is being sent and other live data like misfires. I have been reading up and the flow charts for some lockup converters says that there has to be a bunch of "yes" responses for the torque converter to lock up.. like speed over __, TPS at >____%, etc, it seems like some sensors says "yes" then "no" then "yes" which was causing my original/initial symptom.
Either way, the only way forward is to access this data while driving or the car raised up. I can see if the signal is being sent, if the TC locks or not and any other data that seems to correlate to the no lock up condition...
Which should be fun.. trying to find a shop or "someone" that has like a Tech II or any other scanner that would/could work with 1996 ODBII.
The shop owner is ready to take it to his "friend" who does auto electrical work. Ill pass on that and pick my car up in the morning, something about that proposition rubs me wrong. I like to do my own stuff, but tranny work on your back in the garage sucks.
At this point I need to see if the signal is being sent and other live data like misfires. I have been reading up and the flow charts for some lockup converters says that there has to be a bunch of "yes" responses for the torque converter to lock up.. like speed over __, TPS at >____%, etc, it seems like some sensors says "yes" then "no" then "yes" which was causing my original/initial symptom.
Either way, the only way forward is to access this data while driving or the car raised up. I can see if the signal is being sent, if the TC locks or not and any other data that seems to correlate to the no lock up condition...
Which should be fun.. trying to find a shop or "someone" that has like a Tech II or any other scanner that would/could work with 1996 ODBII.
The shop owner is ready to take it to his "friend" who does auto electrical work. Ill pass on that and pick my car up in the morning, something about that proposition rubs me wrong. I like to do my own stuff, but tranny work on your back in the garage sucks.
Last edited by WVZR-1; May 29, 2019 at 01:06 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,677
Likes: 812
From: Saskatoon Sask.
I do not know a whole bunch about scanners so I may be wrong here but does a scanner not just tell you what the computer is commanding? Is there a feedback that tells the scanner that a function has actually happened? My point is this - a scanner may tell you that it has commanded a TCC lockup. But did it actually happen? Did the ground signal actually get to the solenoid? Personally, I would do it old school. Find the ground wire for the TCC right at the transmission. Tap into it, run a temporary wire inside to a low wattage indicator bulb and give the other side a 12V feed. Go for a drive and watch the bulb. If it lights and stays on, then any fault can be pretty much narrowed down to inside the Trans.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
That sucks but I'd think you should be able to find someone close with a Tech2 - You might want to poke around the C5 & C6 sections a bit. Maybe even ask mentioning your location. I have one but I'm on 'the other coast' I'd think in a Cali location there would be many. The Chinese 'clone' isn't outrageously priced. Do you have other GM that could use a Tech2?
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,394
Likes: 2,741
screen saves etc to look at.
I'm quite surprised that a trans shop that does any e-transmissions can't do drive-ability with a scanner! Seems real odd!
None of the 3 shops you first considered did an extended drive with a 'scanner'?
***I understand Arbee's thoughts forsure!
Last edited by WVZR-1; May 29, 2019 at 01:59 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
Here are the upgraded parts I had installed:
Sonnax Heavy-Duty 2-3 Shift Valves 77754-41
Extend the life of your forward clutch and input sprag with the upgrade performance of Sonnax heavy-duty 2-3 shift valves! Your factory valve is limited to applying the overrun clutch only in D3, 3rd gear; whereas these Sonnax valves apply it in D3, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. This furnishes extra durability to clutch components in plow trucks, heavy-duty vehicles, and in high performance apps. The Sonnax 2-3 shift valves also work well with units operated by aftermarket electronic paddle shifters--allowing for full downshift engine breaking in 2nd gear, while the shifter remains in the D3 position. No special tools are required for installation; it's a transmission overrun clutch component worth exploring!
Sonnax Rear Stator Support Bushings 77002BT-01
OE rear stator support bushings have a tendency to wear-out prematurely due to sub-optimal material composition. This wear can lead to bushing failure, loss of correct pressure to the E-clutch, and gear ratio or solenoid codes. Sonnax rear stator support bushings have an upgraded material composition to restore worry-free operation, superior wear characteristics, and eliminate premature deterioration.
Sonnax Super-Hold Servo Kits 77767K
Sonnax Super-Hold servo kits offer increased apply area over the OEM servo for more holding force between shifts. They are manufactured from anodized aluminum and include mounting seals and hardware for your specific transmission model. Their improved seal design will conserve pump volume.
Sonnax Automatic Transmission Bands 77700-01
Sonnax knows you want your transmission to shift like a dream. Their automatic transmission bands are extra-wide intermediate bands suitable for heavy-duty, commercial, and 4x4 vehicles. These drop-in replacements provide 15 percent more holding capacity and feature a 60 percent thicker case anchor, decreasing the chance of band failure under severe conditions. (Note: The red-lined version of these Alto bands is designed for high-torque street racing applications. The Kevlar®-lined version is too aggressive for street use and best suited for high performance racing applications.)
Sonnax Pinless Accumulator Piston Kits 77998-03K
Wear at the piston pin bore surface can result in poor shift quality and burnt clutches and bands. Sonnax Pinless accumulator piston kits prevent pin bore leakage. They're also longer to stabilize the piston and prevent piston cocking. They feature dual seals to stabilize and completely seal the bore, and steel ***** to plug the existing pin bore. Fluid loss through the piston pin bore will no longer be an issue when you invest in Sonnax piston kits.
TransGo Performance Shift Kits 4L60E-HD2
TransGo's Performance shift kits give you the hard-launching, tire-blazing shifts you want, after just a few hours' work with basic hand tools. TransGo even has kits for computer-controlled, 4-speed automatics. Their performance shift kits can be installed with the transmission in the vehicle and they come with complete instructions. Some kits even include a step-by-step video to walk you through the installation process.
Sonnax 4L60 4L60E Transmission TCC Apply Valve Kit for PWM 77805E-K
Updated stroke pressure eliminates TCC drift on apply and updated exhaust control
PTFE seal eliminates cross leaking of converter signal oil and converter feed oil
Sonnax kit works in both early- and late-style PWM pumps when used with included spring
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 231
From: Hawthorne CA
Ok! Progress has been made.
I have whittled this down to the brake switch..
So I go to test/inspect this switch and I find this:
This does not look stock.. the tape was all rotted out and I have never seen anything like it in any of the c4s i have had.. Should there be this extra component be on this connector??
Then on the other brake switch there is just a vacuum that I assume goes to the cruise control, but nothing else is plugged in.
I have whittled this down to the brake switch..
So I go to test/inspect this switch and I find this:
This does not look stock.. the tape was all rotted out and I have never seen anything like it in any of the c4s i have had.. Should there be this extra component be on this connector??
Then on the other brake switch there is just a vacuum that I assume goes to the cruise control, but nothing else is plugged in.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 6,192
Likes: 750
From: near the thumb in the mitten
The connector with the black tape. It's for the stop lights. The thing soldered in is a capacitor it's supposed to be that way.
Last edited by Kevova; May 30, 2019 at 08:29 PM.