Copper Shavings on the block
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Copper Shavings on the block
Hey guys,
I have my heads off and there are copper shavings, not a lot, but some that are on the block underneath where the intake manifold sits.
This has to be bad. I'm guessing it's my bearings in the engine, right?
I am being told by a local shop that I need to completely drop the block and replace the bearings in the engine. I really didn't notice any problems except the head gasket being blown.
The head gasket was blown in part because the car overheated big-time. There was a leak in the coolant system and my gauges didn't read it correctly. So we're talking probably way over 300 degrees. And I'm hearing from this shop that because of the extreme heat, the oil loses its viscosity and you pretty much have metal to metal, and that's where the copper shavings are coming from.
Does it sound like this guy is telling me the right story? The shavings are not extreme, but they are noticable all around the lifters. Some of you more experienced gentlemen probably know exactly what this is.
TIA,
Shayne
I have my heads off and there are copper shavings, not a lot, but some that are on the block underneath where the intake manifold sits.
This has to be bad. I'm guessing it's my bearings in the engine, right?
I am being told by a local shop that I need to completely drop the block and replace the bearings in the engine. I really didn't notice any problems except the head gasket being blown.
The head gasket was blown in part because the car overheated big-time. There was a leak in the coolant system and my gauges didn't read it correctly. So we're talking probably way over 300 degrees. And I'm hearing from this shop that because of the extreme heat, the oil loses its viscosity and you pretty much have metal to metal, and that's where the copper shavings are coming from.
Does it sound like this guy is telling me the right story? The shavings are not extreme, but they are noticable all around the lifters. Some of you more experienced gentlemen probably know exactly what this is.
TIA,
Shayne
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
Well the only place I can think of copper are the bearings like you mentioned. :( And if you're seeing actual shavings, that isn't good. Normally in the oil you'll get some shiny metallic stuff on the surface.
Everything but the camshaft bearings (which have the lease stresses on them) can be replaced with the engine still in the car. It would be a bitch laying on your back, but can and has been done.
Everything but the camshaft bearings (which have the lease stresses on them) can be replaced with the engine still in the car. It would be a bitch laying on your back, but can and has been done.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (scorp508)
And if you're seeing actual shavings, that isn't good. Normally in the oil you'll get some shiny metallic stuff on the surface.
I can get access to a hydraulic lifter since my brother in law is the service manager at a dealership. Maybe this would be the easiest route. We'll see!
How much residue can you have before it's really bad? I mean, is a little tiny layer all around the lifters OK? Or if I see any at all it's time to do something about it immediately?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
Copper is the last layer of defence in a bearing. This means all of your babbit material has worn away. :( Not a good thing. I would investigate immediately. If you get can the car so that you can stand directly under it the job would be easier. Still mega messy from oil dripping on you forever and a day, but better.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (scorp508)
Well scorp508, thanks for all of your quick prompt replies. I'm thinking that I might just drop the engine and take it down to a place where I can work on it. Bummer dude!
Thanks again,
Shayne
Thanks again,
Shayne
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (ZylaRace)
Has the engine had work done on it before? Has someone replaced the lifter guides? i.e. Installed lifter sleeves?
With it going to be this torn down, I'm assuming all of the things that you have mentioned would need to be replaced?
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Instructor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte NC
Re: (RichS)
D'oh!
Depending on how much water went through it, you very well may have hosed the bearings. If you have your last oil filter, cut the bad boy open and poke through the folds of the filter element.
On an aside, I hope you dont have Al heads, b/c if you do.. theyre probably toast :(. It doesnt take much for Al to lose its heat treat, and after that it'll likely pop head gaskets now and again. Even worse, the material seperating the center two chambers can get over heated from the two exh ports & end up blowing out & chipping away at the block, trashing it in the process. Thats an extreme case.. but I've seen bowtie blocks with over .200" blown out from crossfire :eek:
If they are Al, have the hardness of the deck between those two chambers checked. If theyre soft, throw them away, b/c by the time you pay to re-heat treat them, and then to remachine every surface, you'll have quite a bit of $ tied up in them.
Good luck!
-Phil
Depending on how much water went through it, you very well may have hosed the bearings. If you have your last oil filter, cut the bad boy open and poke through the folds of the filter element.
On an aside, I hope you dont have Al heads, b/c if you do.. theyre probably toast :(. It doesnt take much for Al to lose its heat treat, and after that it'll likely pop head gaskets now and again. Even worse, the material seperating the center two chambers can get over heated from the two exh ports & end up blowing out & chipping away at the block, trashing it in the process. Thats an extreme case.. but I've seen bowtie blocks with over .200" blown out from crossfire :eek:
If they are Al, have the hardness of the deck between those two chambers checked. If theyre soft, throw them away, b/c by the time you pay to re-heat treat them, and then to remachine every surface, you'll have quite a bit of $ tied up in them.
Good luck!
-Phil
Drifting
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 1
From: Norcross GA
Re: (SkarodoM)
Generally the lifter bores are not touched during a rebuild. Most times they are overlooked, or don't need work. It is mainly done on exotic drag engines. (Less friction)
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,097
Likes: 0
From: High Plains Drifter Fayetteville, AR
Re: (ZylaRace)
Generally the lifter bores are not touched during a rebuild. Most times they are overlooked, or don't need work. It is mainly done on exotic drag engines. (Less friction)
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
J :seeya
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (JCAIRE2)
Generally the lifter bores are not touched during a rebuild. Most times they are overlooked, or don't need work. It is mainly done on exotic drag engines. (Less friction)
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
That is what I was wondering, where did the copper come from? Sorry to hear you're still having trouble getting your vette back together. I hope you get it worked out the way you would like. :cheers:
J :seeya
Someone may have used the sprayon copper head gasket film (Permatex). That would be a long shot, but it is ment to be used on Alu heads. Other than that, it would be very difficult for the bottom end bearings to get into the oil and get into the lifter galley. Maybe they got in from the heads? (But there is no copper up there anyway?)
Difficult to say from here. Maybe post a pic?
That is what I was wondering, where did the copper come from? Sorry to hear you're still having trouble getting your vette back together. I hope you get it worked out the way you would like. :cheers:
J :seeya
Thanks for your concern. You guys are all getting me through this and I'm learning heaps. I appreicate it more than you know.
Shayne
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,097
Likes: 0
From: High Plains Drifter Fayetteville, AR
Re: (sspackman)
Good to hear sspackman. Since you have the block out of the car, have you decided to do anything else to it? Are you going to do a full tear-down? Just curious as to what your plans are for the engine now that you have pulled it completely out. Did you get a chance to determine the source of the shavings? Sorry for all the questions, just nosey :lol: :yesnod: :lol:
Keep us posted. I might be moving to Salt Lake next summer, my girlfriend wants to go to grad school out there, and I want to cruise Utah's wide open spaces. We went all throughout Utah on spring break last semester and we both love it.
Good luck!
J :seeya
Keep us posted. I might be moving to Salt Lake next summer, my girlfriend wants to go to grad school out there, and I want to cruise Utah's wide open spaces. We went all throughout Utah on spring break last semester and we both love it.
Good luck!
J :seeya
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (JCAIRE2)
Good to hear sspackman. Since you have the block out of the car, have you decided to do anything else to it? Are you going to do a full tear-down? Just curious as to what your plans are for the engine now that you have pulled it completely out. Did you get a chance to determine the source of the shavings? Sorry for all the questions, just nosey :lol: :yesnod: :lol:
Keep us posted. I might be moving to Salt Lake next summer, my girlfriend wants to go to grad school out there, and I want to cruise Utah's wide open spaces. We went all throughout Utah on spring break last semester and we both love it.
Good luck!
J :seeya
Keep us posted. I might be moving to Salt Lake next summer, my girlfriend wants to go to grad school out there, and I want to cruise Utah's wide open spaces. We went all throughout Utah on spring break last semester and we both love it.
Good luck!
J :seeya
Just got the flex plate off of it, that's it so far. I'll determine where the shavings came from hopefully sometime this week. Looks like I need to get a dampner puller to start...
I'm toying with the idea of getting a new short block. Since I don't know the clearances of this and am not keen to the idea of re-doing the whole cam shaft and lifters to get a roller-rocker setup, I might just trade mine in and get a better one with a warranty. I decided I want to have rollers instead of rockers, and as long as I'm going that far I thought I might as well do the block.
My uncle who is president of the Cache Valley Cruisers here in Utah said that he would probably check Edlebrock for new short blocks. What do you think? I want to spend around 2K on this project, maybe $2500. I'm just not sure where to go yet.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,083
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Fork Utah
Re: (RichS)
Have you dumped the oil? Bad bearings will make the oil look like your panning for gold! When you drop the pan everything will look like glittler.
I dumped the oil this last time, but I usually just let Jiffy Lube do it for $4 more than I can do it myself. The oil coming out now doesn't seem to have any glitter to it at all. This might indicate that the damage was done some time ago and I've just been driving it that way since I received a new oil change. What I didn't know before that I know now is that when an engine overheats, it damages the oil which in turn makes it lose it's viscosity, effectively turning it into 'water'. I'm sure that this happened sometime last July when I overheated really bad.
Thanks everyone for your replies! :seeya