I would imagine they are using Ammonia based systems but who knows.

 

It's not about pollution or the environment, it's about money! The EPA has been around since the '70s and here in Ohio, our rivers are still polluted! The big corporations that they catch polluting just pay a big fine, the money goes to Chicago, and we are left with the pollution. It's all about our corrupt government!

 

The best lies usually have some truth to mostly truth in them

 

I have a full 35 pound jug of R12. I should sell it before there are no R12 systems left. Dan

 

Ima get me some chill

 

It's always about the money and the 'agenda' which is secondary but impotrant for the control. . Eggheads brainstorm an idea they know the libby in the organization will like. They fabricate and idea and submit it. They fall for it of course and the grant is approved for the study. A compound is deemed environmentally unfriendly. A new one has to be created and we all know the Freon scenario along with countless other bogus restrictions that are built on false data.

HFC's do not reach the Ozone. And even if they could they don't have the ability to deplete the Ozone. Only several hundred nuclear detonations at once could have a major effect. The Sun creates Ozone along with many other factors dictated by a The Grand Engineer. They do some good, ie huge smog reduction in California along with others but they falsify research on subjects that have a biased grudge against due to programming by certain people in charge

It's called a 'Program' for a reason and you are it. .

There is some good but more bad, they follow the idea that will get the grant ,right or wrong and the job security stays in place. we all see the bad decisions they make and those with common sense shake their head but have no power to do anything..
Almost everything is an illusion, or 'fake, fake news, fake selfies, fake *****, fake butts , fake elections, fake research data , it goes on and on and on to the point that now it's severe delusion by those participating and you better get with the 'program' or else...

I refuse....

I would like to know if the Ebay R12 works. I just used my last 2 cans of R12....

 

I think it might be worth more and more but less buyers.

 

Compared to the other cars in the upper spectrum, he could make that statement legitimately. Regardless, he did as expected. It's cheap so he bit. People are like that. It's cheap so what does he have to lose, right?

I doubt they care enough to do anything,let alone throw resources to enforce it

 

Agreed !!!! Real R-12 Refrigerant is worth a bunch these days. A 30 Lb tank runs $1,500 at the Refrigerant Depot ($50/lb).

As for the "Narrative"... If you do some reading - you will find that IF automakers move away from R-134a to a more environmentally clean refrigerant (read1234 YF - and I'll leave it up to people's imagination what the "YF" stands for), they are allowed to claim a EPA mileage credit. Yes - I'm 100% serious. It's clearly NOT about the science....

 

BTW - Just for everyone's reading amusement - here are the rules for purchasing refrigerant right from the EPA website... While you can still buy small (sub 2 Lb) cans of R-134 - the EPA has already banned consumers from buying the larger containers of R-134. Anyone wanna take a bet on what's next ???

Refrigerant Sales Restriction

Overview

The sales restriction is established by EPA regulations (40 CFR Part 82, Subpart F) under Section 608 of the Clean Air Act. Only EPA-certified technicians are allowed to purchase ozone-depleting substances (ODS) or non-ozone depleting substitutes used as refrigerants, with limited exceptions. Refrigerant can only be sold to technicians certified under the Section 608 or Section 609 technician certification programs, where individuals may only purchase refrigerant consistent with the appliances covered by their certification.

The sales restriction covers refrigerants contained in cylinders, cans, or drums, except for the sale of small cans of substitute refrigerants (e.g., R-134a for use in motor vehicle air conditioners). This sales restriction does not cover refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment or components containing refrigerants.

Requirements to Purchase Refrigerant

The following people can generally buy any type of ozone-depleting or substitute refrigerant under this sales restriction:

• Technicians who have earned the Section 608 Technician Certification.
• Employers of a Section 608 certified technician (or the employer's authorized representative) if the employer provides the refrigerant wholesaler with written evidence that he or she employs at least one properly certified technician.

The following people can buy refrigerant found acceptable for use in a motor vehicle air conditioner (MVAC):

• Technicians who have earned Section 609 Technician Certification.
• Employers of a Section 609 certified technician (or the employer's authorized representative) if the employer provides the refrigerant wholesaler with written evidence that he or she employs at least one properly certified technician. Nothing in this provision relieves persons of the requirements of 40 CFR § 82.34(b) or § 82.42(b).

Only Section 608 certified technicians can purchase refrigerants intended for use with stationary refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment. Section 609 certified technicians cannot purchase refrigerants that are intended for use with stationary equipment, regardless of container size.

Small cans of non-exempt MVAC refrigerant (i.e., containers designed to hold two pounds or less of refrigerant) that have unique fittings, and self-sealing valves can continue to be sold to persons without certification for DIY use on their vehicles.

Wholesaler Responsibilities when Selling Refrigerant

Wholesalers that sell either ozone-depleting or substitute refrigerants must retain invoices that indicate the name of the purchaser, the date of sale, and the quantity of refrigerant purchased.

Wholesalers that sell refrigerant for resale are legally responsible for ensuring that their customers fit into one of the categories of allowed purchasers under the sales restriction. Although the regulation does not specify precautions that wholesalers must take to verify the intent of individuals purchasing refrigerant, EPA recommends that wholesalers obtain a signed statement from the purchaser indicating that he or she is purchasing the refrigerant only for eventual resale to certified technicians.

Wholesalers also may sell refrigerant to the purchaser’s authorized representative if the purchaser provides evidence that he or she employs at least one certified technician. It is the wholesaler's responsibility to determine whether persons who claim to represent a refrigerant purchaser are indeed authorized representatives. EPA recommends, but does not require, that wholesalers keep lists of authorized representatives to help with this determination.

 

We said this about R22 a few years ago and it is currently selling for $1000 a 30# drum. And we said that about R12 in the late 1980’s when this all started.

 

I have a house with R22. Someday, it will break. At which point, it probably will be cheaper to get a new unit that to screw around with R22. I think this is going to be like many things. Easier to get new than to try fix old. Remember the TV Repairman? Back then, sure. They were expensive things and not everyone had one. Today, they are more affordable and it is easier to toss the old thing out than to fix it.

 

I took this online test many years ago. Simple and only costs $20.


https://www.escogroup.org/training/epa609.aspx

 

YEP - Many of us Have..

 

That test is a joke. It has nothing about a/c principles. Another situation where the gov't should leave that stuff to the pros.

 

If only, we, the people, stop asking government to do this, that and the other for us. Good thing about living with the parents is that it's easier on us in some way, shape or form. Bad thing is that we have to live with their rules.

 

It looks like the people have spoken. If I understand the positions taken, maybe it a poll would be a better tool to clarify. The positions I think I read are:

1. People are forced to accept questionable science in order to be "herded" to using another technology.
2. People can easily be induced to believing an alternative product with a subscript "A" ( as in R12-A ) must be just like the original.
3. Since we accept we are conditioned in to being pushed into the next new tech, even if it saves the planet, look out because its happening now as we speak.
4. People are too incompetent to be able to do their own work.
5. People do respect law and are willing to meet reasonable requirements to be able to work with risky materials.
6. The alternative authority to govt regulation is much better handled in the private sector alone.
7. The govt is us. It should reflect the values of society with a majority vote.
8. The product owner knows better than the customer to the extent that repair knowledge should be proprietary. This will speed up previously indicated herd mentality.
9. The people who own the products believe proprietary repair limitation hurts competition and freedoms.
10. The is an ever evolving tension by govt to maintain public safety, consumers who want freedom to shop the best deal, auto makers to introduce new technology to make lives better, but only if we accept continual restraints.


Verdict. I blame the car makers! LOL. OK I'm going for a drive now. peace out.

 

Ummmm ... While I don't disagree with you on the "course content" or the test content - it is a private sector company that administers the test, and provides you the Certificate.

 

When I went through the portal for the qwik site, they mentioned a suitable training requirement, It seems that part is lax since I have no actual HVAC experience besides commercial HVAC estimating for my Dad's old company. In the end my real R12 got shipped according to my e-bay notice. Not disputing the need to practice for the ham handed. On a u-tube vid the guy purged the air out the gauge header. I gasped. Anyways. in the fwiw category. Its been a fun read.

For a normal top off cycle, does anyone think its a good idea to add the leak stopper, detector dye, or the extra lube? TIA.

 

I would avoid the leak stop - generally speaking - no good comes from that stuff ...

I would use the dye if you are losing a fair amount of refrigerant.

Oil is a more difficult question. Most of the time when you lose refrigerant - you lose a little oil at the same time (hence the oily residue by the leak location). Adding in a little oil with the recharge would seem prudent - but how much to add is a very difficult question. I'd say maybe 5% - 10% of the total oil charge for the system / per can of Refrigerant you add would be about right ???