To the question of detecting leaks.
The simplest form is spit. Yes spit. A touch of it on the Schrader valves will bubble if there is a leak.
If that somehow seems gross then dish soap and water about 10 parts water 1 part soap Or even a bottle of kids bubble soap from the dollar store.
Any of this on wittings will show a leak. No different form finding a leak in a tire.
You can buy fancy "leak detector solution, but your still buying soapy water. There is a version that has antifreeze in it. We used it on radar systems at cold weather bases.

That won't work for everything, like compressor shaft seals. But you can buy florescent leak die that shows up extremely well with a black light. Kit price for light and yellow goggles is not bad.

And yes there are sniffers. Very expensive, really only a full time tech could justify the cost.

 

Probably be easier to get a tech with a sniffer to help you out

 

While I am totally engrossed on EPA section 609 to get a certificate of training to be able to buy reclaimed R12 "legally" on the internet, I am finding the science riveting. I know change can be unpopular but here it is: page 26 of 96.

"Europe is currently taking steps to meet the Kyoto Protocol, which calls for quantitative reduction of greenhouse gases (including HFCs) for the period 2008–2012. Therefore, Europe will be restricting the use of any refrigerant with a Global Warming Potential (GWP) in excess of 150. The European Union has adopted regulations that ban the use of R-134a in all new vehicles by 2017. In the U.S., the Status Change Rule was finalized in July 2015. It states that HFC-134a will no longer be allowed in vehicles as of the model year 2021." ..... " While HFO-1234yf and R-152a are flammable refrigerants, they are Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) approved. Automobile manufacturers are currently considering HFO-1234yf, carbon dioxide, R-152a."

Just thought it was interesting info.

 

Have to love gov't agencies. I remember R134a was supposed to reduce harm to the ozone layer. And as a result, charged an outrageous tax on R12. So, it's bad, but if you pay for it. it's OK to use. Now they find out that R134a is just as bad. Guess another tax is coming.

 

yep 134 is a greenhouse gas. After 134R no more "drop in" swaps the new systems are completely incompatible with the evolution of the past few decades. Section 609 is a good read. There is a whistler blower provision in the law $10K reward to a person who can successfully report an unlawful install. $37.5K per DAY, fine for improper handling, i.e. venting, storage, transfer regs. There's supposed to be an official label affixed to converted systems with identifying info about the service dealer. Say EPA tests your freon and discovers a conversion done in the drive way with no records, disposal tracing etc. Its all in the reg. But you can refill a leaking system with the original refrigerant w/o having to attempt repairs. But only if they will sell it to you! Legit vendors have to keep your 609 cert on file for 3 years. All this just to top off AC on a perfectly good running car!

The last number is the years to break down the chemical reactions that create Ozone. Read CFC-12 is R12 and 100 years. R134 is 14 years.

R12 was the best thing next to sliced bread until they figured out it was dissolving the ozone layer over the south pole.

Table 2. Environmental Impact of Several Common Refrigerants Refrigerant GWP Ozone Depletion Potential Atmospheric Lifetime (Years)
CFC-12 10,900 1 100
HFC-134a 1,430 0 14
HFC-152a 124 0 1.4
HFO-1234yf 4 0 0.030
Carbon Dioxide (R-744) 1 0 100

 

There is some good info in this thread - and there is also some info that is Blatantly Wrong !!!!

First off - No one is supposed to sell R-12 to someone who is not certified to purchase it. So - be somewhat leery of anyone who is willing to sell you R-12 without asking for your EPA card. The EPA fines for selling R-12 to unlicensed people are not exactly pocket change....

Second - there are quite a number of people selling R-12 "Compatible" refrigerants today. There is absolutely no standard out there for R-12 compatability, so if you choose to add something other than straight R-12 to your system - who knows what it is or what it will do to your system.

Third - it is perfectly legal to add refrigerant to an existing system for the purposes of "topping off" the charge. It is NOT legal to intentionally vent any refrigerant gas to the atmosphere in order to do diagnostic work or repair work on a A/C system.

By far the best way to recharge a system that is low is through a charging manifold / gauge set - which will let you see what the suction side pressure & high side pressures are as you add refrigerant. Yes - you can charge the system through a simple hose- and "in the day" the technique was to add refrigerant till you didn't see bubbles in the sight glass. It's been a long time since I've seen a sight glass.on a vehicle. Normally - when the system is VERY low - but not completely out - you can add a little refrigerant to get some pressure in the system, then bypass the pressure switch (the Pressure Switch is normally what keeps the compressor from running when the static pressure is too low), to allow the compressor to run, and charge till you have the correct Subcool / Superheat (or the correct pressures). (Alternatively - you can jump power directly to the compressor clutch). I will also say that if you hook up a charging manifold / gauge set - and see that the system pressure is Zero - you should fully evacuate the system before charging - if the pressure dropped to zero - it's likely that the system is contaminated with air. Air in the system will prelude the system from working properly.

If you do some reading - it seems that 1234YF is a drop in replacement for R-134. 1234YF just happens to be about 10X more expensive than R134 and it is also poisonous.

Friendly advice for anyone reading this thread - stop by Wal Mart or similar stores and pick up a few cans of R-134 while it's still cheap and widely available. That is going to change sometime in the future.

 

I agree. I have my EPA 609 Cert and have only been asked one time by an Ebay seller for a copy of my certificate. It really makes you wonder if they are just ignorant of the regulation or trying to pass something off.

 

There is so much R134 in the pipeline that it's going to take a long time to exhaust. What will happen, just like R12, there will be a yearly tax on existing inventory to prevent stockpiling.
Finally, there's so much junk out there that any reputable shop won't touch a system without identifying what gas is in there.

 

I agree - there is a lot of R-134 out there. But it could suddenly become unavailable if the EPA regs changed so only licensed individuals could purchase it... One little regulatory change - and all of a sudden it's game over for a lot of people.

I think most shops will test an R-12 system to see what's in there - one can of R-12 substitute can screw up their recovery machine... I really don't know if shops will test R134 systems.

 

My Bad -"chemical reactions that create Ozone" - destroys Ozone (turns O3 into O2) O3 being the globe's natural suntan lotion against UV. The recent posts are clearly very knowledgeable. Without the reg in front of me at the moment I think the issue with next gen refrigerants in the table, not being a drop in is due to its toxicity or flammability there is some kind of cabin exposure issue if it leaks, has to be developed into the design against infiltrating the cabin. While the new ones are being developed for mass use (it says there are millions out there already, as it reads), I believe refitting isn't a legal option on existing hardware. I could be mistaken, but I am pretty sure I will cruise that section again when I set up for the open book exam and be more than willing to redact mis-information.. Good stuff to be aware of the casual driveway mechanic, such as myself, probably hasn't thought too much about. In the end it seems to make the choice easier to just stay with R12 hopefully the reclaimed stock will outlast the life of my C4. BTW there are stringent SAE requirements for purity of reclaimed R12, so I figure if they are legit and are requiring the certs it seems like its reasonably safe to get these lube/leak detection/fill kits online. I would answer 25 questions from a searchable open book (PDF) quiz, it seems reasonable. Its $20 online.

 

[QUOTE=93QuasarBlue;1603630842
Table 2. Environmental Impact of Several Common Refrigerants Refrigerant GWP Ozone Depletion Potential Atmospheric Lifetime (Years)
CFC-12 10,900 1 100
HFC-134a 1,430 0 14
HFC-152a 124 0 1.4
HFO-1234yf 4 0 0.030
Carbon Dioxide (R-744) 1 0 100[/QUOTE]
There is no such thing as environmental Ozone depletion from any refrigerant. It doesn't make it to the Ozone lol. And we done the testing. and the research years ago. It's the same old ****, it's about govt. control and job creation and grants for egg heads to keep the money rolling...'you paid for it' and still are...

 

Speaking of the "same old ****", it seems to be piling up here. Who is the "we" that done the testing and research "years ago"?

 

I saw a guy selling the R12a at Corvettes@Carlisle by the case of 24 cans. He was getting less than $18 a can for it in quantity. I asked him if it was the same as the R12 we used to be able to buy. His response was that it would work in any R12 system. When I expressed interest the man never mentioned anything about what it was other than the claim that it was filtered and cleaned before being put in the can. The guy never mentioned anything about having a certificate to purchase it legally, this makes me think it is not the same as the R12 we used to use.

I bought some for a neighbor who refuses to switch over to R134 and he put it in his Porsche and within months he bought a new compressor among other parts. I found it better to test on my neighbor's Car......

Back when a local car parts chain went broke they sold the R134 for $.99 a can so I bought all the store had. I converted my 1988 C4 and it has worked ever since.

 

I would not have touched it unless I hated my neighbor.

 

found it. Why People Fall For Conspiracy Theories | FiveThirtyEight

 

There is almost always a trace of truth in a conspiracy. Sometimes it is predominately the truth .The only time one can tell for sure is if that one has direct knowledge guided with experience in that particular subject.
Kooks on either side and there is always money to be made on either side.

 

Maybe conspiracy theories are more palatable also? My problems are caused by a few guys in some dark room manipulating things. Find them and remove them and life is good again.

 

Hello Aklim,
This man once referred to a Corvette as a "Poor Man's" Sports Car. I gave him the information and he ordered it from the guy at Carlisle. I would not put anything like that in any of my cars. Since they did not ask for my EPA Certificate Number that alone indicates it is not the same as the original Freon. If they can get around the rules they will try.

I remember the sound of Hissing of AC systems in the Middle East country of Abu Dhabi. Over there EVERYTHING is air conditioned and the swimming pools were cooled with giant refrigeration systems. The shop owners routinely vent the systems before pulling a vacuum and starting over. No laws about releasing Freon over there. That tiny country is like all the rest of the world is polluting at twice the rate we were and yet we have to pay.

 

Until that's fixed, the rest of us are spinning are wheels. The same thing is true for climate change, and overpopulation
This post has really taken a on a life of its own.
Does any one know the size of the charge fittings? Is it 1/4"? I think the thing for me to do is get a R12 manifold set, and some adapters. Lots of models at different prices. I wish I knew what would work best.

 

That is true. More than few but few as compared to the whole population.We just saw what they did with a virus..The Wuhan lab and genome engineering for germ warfare was a running joke and a conspiracy kook theory until COVID.. Some truth trickles out on who is getting rich and why it was done but really, a reasonably intelligent person sees what is going on but the many that don't is alarming...